Behind Broadway: Rachel Bauder’s Journey Backstage

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What goes on behind the curtains of a Broadway play and how do you get back there?

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We'll explore the answers to those questions, and beyond, during this episode of no Wrong Choices.

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Thank you so much for joining us.

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I'm Larry Samuels, soon to be joined by my collaborators Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea.

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We do have one quick ask before we start the show today, and that is if you enjoy what we're doing, please like and follow no Wrong Choices on your favorite podcast platform.

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Now let's get started.

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This episode features the Broadway production stage manager, Rachel Bauder.

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Rachel's known for her work on productions such as Enemy of the People, the currently running Romeo and Juliet and Beetlejuice.

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Larry Shea as our resident actor and theater aficionado.

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Please set this one up for us.

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Yeah, you know, I think this is one of those mysterious professions where you the first thing you have to wonder is how do I get my foot in the door?

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You know, how am I going to get into this business?

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You know it's so limited and it just seems like there's so few jobs available of this caliber.

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So how did she do that?

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You know it's so limited and it just seems like there's so few jobs available of this caliber, so how did she do that?

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You know, I think that's the biggest thing.

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And then on the back end of that, once you get that job, that show is going to end.

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What are you going to do for your next job and your next job, Because those shows are ending.

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So it's fascinating that, like this is a profession where just because you get one job doesn't mean your career is set.

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You got to keep that level at such a high platitude that everyone wants to work with you.

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You develop the reputation.

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I'm fascinated to get into that whole thing.

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How do you get the job and how do you get another one?

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I want to know how it is you take such a chaotic scene, like being part of a broadway theater production, or a movie production for that matter, and how, how it is you take such a chaotic scene like being part of a broadway theater production, or a movie production for that matter, and how is it that you become the person who has to make the trains run on time so to speak right, you got to make sure everyone hits their spot.

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You've got to make sure the lights work.

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You really are like.

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You really are the conductor of an orchestra outside.

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You probably have the second most important job outside of the actual director themselves.

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So it's so interesting to hear, hear about a job like this and to have the ability to speak to someone, like speak to someone like this.

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Now I'll be fully honest, full, full disclosure.

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I actually was not part of this discussion, but I I as a producer myself for so many other things I can relate, so I'm really interested in hearing this.

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And for me, I'm really curious how somebody winds up in this field.

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Are you starting as an actor?

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Is this what the dream was from the beginning?

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I'm very curious to find out how somebody winds up in this place.

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So, with no further ado, here is Rachel Baughter.

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Rachel, thank you so much for joining us.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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What we like to do off the very top is to ask our guest, in this case you, to tell us what you do for a living.

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We can all think about.

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You know what a stage manager is, but nobody knows the answer to that question better than you.

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So please set the stage for us.

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No pun intended.

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What is a production stage manager?

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Let me start by saying I've been doing this for almost 20 years and I feel like my mother still doesn't know what I do.

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This is not an easy thing to define, but the way that I try to explain it is a production stage manager is kind of like an air traffic controller for an individual production.

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So any production that you see, whether it's on Broadway, off Broadway, regionally has a production stage manager at the helm of a team of stage managers, and the production stage manager is the person who oversees everything All of the departments who work backstage, all of the things that happen front of house, everything that happens in the cast.

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They're the ones responsible for keeping the curtain up anytime there is a scheduled performance.

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It's a very administrative job, but there's also a creative component to it, so it's sort of like a big manager.

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That's the only way I can think to describe it.

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Sounds so easy.

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Oh, that's a breeze.

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So yeah, I get the fun part.

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I get to kind of take you back and ask you was this the dream?

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And essentially, was there a theater moment from your childhood that essentially led you down this career path?

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seriously in this position, but I started out as an actor.

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I wanted to be an actor.

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When I was a kid, my parents were always very great at taking me and my sister to see shows.

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Whenever touring productions would come through our neighborhood, we always had season tickets to see all the shows, and there was something about live theater that was just fascinating to me.

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The weird thing is it didn't fit with who I am as a human.

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I am a deep introvert.

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I was very shy as a kid, and so that notion of being like front and center just made no sense.

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But because that's what I saw, that's what I wanted to do, that's what I loved.

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I loved theater and the only thing you really see is what's on stage.

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You don't realize what's happening backstage.

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So I kind of went down that path of I'm going to be an actor.

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So I acted in middle school, I acted in high school, I went to college to be an actor, I moved to New York to be an actor and then, shortly after I got to New York, I realized this is not at all for me.

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And then in New York is where I realized there's 100 different avenues that all contribute to a live theater production, and I found one that I liked better.

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That just fits who I was as a person.

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When you were in school.

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I'm curious.

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I mean I don't want to skip over the acting stuff, I definitely want to get to the stage manager part, but as an actor, you know what were some of the projects that you were working on and how did you go about learning that craft before you transitioned.

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That's a good question.

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I mean, high school is one of those things where I had like a pretty kooky drama teacher who would pick very strange shows that no one had heard of before to do for our main stage productions.

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So I can't even tell you what they're called, I don't remember what the characters were, but I would often play the lead in these shows and there was something about it that spoke to me, that sort of learning how to build a character and create a backstory and build a world and bring people and an audience in that really captivated me, captivated me.

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And this kooky woman for what?

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For what it was worth was incredible and she was so inspiring.

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But there was always little opportunities outside of being on stage that I also found that in high school.

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I was in all the shows, but there would also be small opportunities where I could help organize another show from backstage.

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And then the same thing happened in college.

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It was a very well-rounded program I was in.

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I guess like the most recognizable thing I did in college is I played Rosencrantz in Hamlet.

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I also played Harper in Angels in America, but there was also a small student run black box theater on my campus where a friend would be like hey, I'm going to try to direct this random show.

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Do you want to hang my lights?

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Do you want to design my costumes?

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Do you want to be my stage manager?

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And we would all sort of get to try our hand at these different things.

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So I had all these opportunities to see the other things that went on behind the scenes, and that was always much more interesting to me than being on stage.

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That's so funny.

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I was also a failed actor.

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I don't know what I would call myself.

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But yeah, it's not for the faint of heart, not also a failed actor.

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Separate the two.

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Rachel's very successful in her own right.

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Absolutely.

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She made a choice, but not as an actor.

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I mean it beats you up.

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You know the audition process I found very grueling.

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It's the audition process I found very grueling.

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Self-esteem takes quite a bit of hits.

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It's really a we call it a business of failure.

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Essentially, you get that one job but you're auditioning for 90 others.

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Oh yeah, do you remember a show or something that you saw when you were a kid or when you were younger that you're like I want to be up on stage doing exactly what they're doing?

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Do you remember an impressionable show like that or anything?

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No, I wish I had a better answer for that question, but I never had that aha moment of.

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This is my passion, this is my heart.

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But I feel like every time I saw a live performance of any sort, my heart soared Like.

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I remember seeing Riverdance not theater at all, but I cried because it was just such an incredible live experience.

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And I remember seeing, like going to the circus and like, coming home afterwards and wanting to like pretend like I was one of the women on stage who was doing the acrobats and riding the elephants, like there was something about that live element that, across the board, every show spoke to me in kind of the same, the same way.

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Yeah.

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So so talk about the acting a little bit.

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Then you, you, you said you pursued it in college.

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Even so, you're in the leads when you're younger and then you want to pursue this and you feel that you can.

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Before you have that Eureka moment of you know what?

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I think I need to do something else, because it doesn't fit who I am.

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Where did you go to school?

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How did you pursue that?

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Sure, I went to James Madison University in Virginia and I had to audition to get into this program, which is weird because it was a very broad sort of liberal arts program and it was very well-rounded.

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There weren't concentrations necessarily, there was no program if you wanted to be a technical, anything in theater, it was just sort of you do theater, and so we all just sort of did everything.

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There was a bunch of like kooky professors at my college who were all just sort of passionate about theater, but also older.

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Many of them retired after I graduated and so their perception of theater and what it takes to make it in the business and what avenues are available to you was very limited.

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I remember them explaining yeah, I remember them explaining like when you move to New York, this is how you get jobs.

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And so I moved to New York and was like wait, this is not at all working Because perception is from you know what worked 40 years ago.

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But because of that I sort of was forced to find different ways in in New York into the business, and then it discovered so many other opportunities that way.

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Describe that experience.

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You come to New York You're now in the big city, so to speak, with a big dream of breaking through.

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How do you get started?

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I mean, are you showing up at auditions randomly?

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How are you discovering those things?

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What is that process?

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I honestly don't know if I ever figured that out.

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I moved to New York and I had friends who were already here, who had graduated ahead of me, and we all were just sort of looking online for opportunities and you'd look in weird places like Craigslist and because we didn't know what we were doing, and we would go to auditions for things, and I got cast in a couple of things.

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They were just like really small things, but you very quickly realize that you need to pay rent and you very quickly realize you have to feed yourself and like auditions don't equal food.

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And that was sort of when we all got creative and all of us sort of got what they call survival jobs and thankfully mine was still within the industry and that's kind of how I found my, my backdoor and I don't want to jump ahead too much, but do you find that, because you understand the plight of an actor, that you can relate better when you're doing your job now?

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A thousand percent.

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A thousand percent that is one thing that I'm really grateful for is that I do feel like, having had that experience, I can understand it more from the outside, that I can look at an actor's experience and know what they're going through and really respect that process in a way that I think if you've never experienced that yourself, you wouldn't understand.

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So a thousand percent, yeah.

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Yeah, that's such a good point.

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I studied music and I wanted to be a sound recording engineer and the first two years you have to play it's performance based right.

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They don't let you touch the knobs and the faders or anything because they want you to understand the plight of the musician.

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So I would think that would be very valuable in your work that you did that.

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You understood what the actors are going through.

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Yeah, and my college experience was similar because we had that opportunity to experience.

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We got to design costumes, we got to hang lights, we got to direct, we got to do all sorts of other components that go into theater that you wouldn't necessarily know, cause, again, as a kid you only know what you see, and I saw what happens on stage.

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You don't realize how much goes in behind the scenes, but I got to experience all of it, and on a small scale, small non-professional scale, but still it sort of gives you so much more insight than you would have if you had just had picked one path and stayed on it much more insight than you would have if you had just had picked one path and stayed on it.

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That's great.

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I'm just curious.

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You didn't take this particular path.

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But do you know, are there schools right now where you could study stage management and things of that nature?

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Oh yeah, yeah, my partner actually went to school for stage management and he is also a Broadway stage manager, so that's another thing.

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I don't like to tell people that I was an actor and I also don't like to tell people that I didn't go to school for it, because it feels like how could you possibly know what you're doing?

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Like how, how did I, how did I get here without?

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any of that.

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Don't let any of them listen to this podcast.

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I know seriously, I will tell no one.

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Everybody mute between minutes 13 and Exactly mute between minutes 13 and uh.

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No, there are opportunities to um to pursue a degree in stage management.

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You can do um undergrad and graduate school for stage management Um.

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I taught a class in in um undergrad stage management recently.

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I've uh been a guest speaker at graduate stage management classes Like they.

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There's there's so many opportunities to be fully educated in that line of work.

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I just don't have that on my resume.

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So talk about that path.

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You mentioned earlier that you were taking second jobs to keep eating while you were acting and that you found sort of a backdoor way in.

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What was that?

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I was an intern in the Roundabout Theater Company's ticketing department and the Roundabout Theater Company is ticketing department and the Roundabout Theater Company is an incredible nonprofit producing powerhouse.

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They've been around for so long.

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They own several theaters on Broadway and off Broadway.

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Their seasons are incredible and I was like a tiny peon in their ticketing office.

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I would file papers all day, Like it was very much like an internship, but this is and I will always credit this particular human with giving me my my start on Broadway.

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There was a day where myself and another woman who worked in the office her name was Lindsay we were sent over to an offsite office to stuff envelopes for a big donor event that was happening for Roundabout offsite office to stuff envelopes for a big donor event that was happening for Roundabout.

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We were there for hours just stuffing envelopes, just me and Lindsay and I knew I had heard that Lindsay had worked on Broadway with a stage management team and I was kind of like, hey, what's, what was that like?

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And we chatted about it.

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I said, hey, how do you, how do you do that?

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How did you get in there?

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And she told me her path.

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She said everyone's path is different.

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I learned so much that day and I was like you know what that feels like me, that feels like something that I could excel in.

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And then, after that day of stuffing envelopes, I didn't think much of it.

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And then down the road Lindsay was given an opportunity to be a production assistant on a Broadway show which is sort of at the bottom rung of the stage management ladder, kind of like a stage management intern, and she didn't want to take it and so she put my name in the ring for that opportunity.

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I met the production stage manager on that show for an interview and he hired me and that was my first Broadway show and I've done 12 Broadway shows since.

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Wow, what are the critical qualities needed to do this job?

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I mean, it sounds like organizationally, you need to be way ahead of the game.

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You tell me what were the strengths.

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What did you see in the job that you're like?

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That's me.

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Mostly before I understood the job, it was mostly the organization.

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I am very type A, I love when things are orderly and and I I'm excellent at keeping track of details.

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And um, uh, that is definitely who I am and who I've always been.

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As a kid, like trying to play with my younger sister, I was always the one who was like now we're going to do this and then we have to do this, Like I was.

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I would organize our play.

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That is who I am, um.

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But then, now that I've done the job, there's also so much more to it.

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There's how would I even say it's about dealing with people.

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For sure, because, being in a position of authority, in a management position, I answer to 100 people every day, in all different departments, at all different levels of the process.

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They come to me at all different levels of emotion and it's up to me to be able to meet all these people where they are, with the same goal of we have to put on a show tonight.

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So for me, it's a lot about communication.

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It's a lot about patience and grace and understanding.

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Empathy is something that I really prioritize as a production stage manager.

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I've worked with others who do not, and I don't feel like that is the way in in a job like this.

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But it's a lot about the people.

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It's keeping people happy and meeting them where they are.

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It's really interesting.

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As we were preparing for the interview, larry and I were sort of game planning beforehand how we were going to approach this, and one of the questions that we both landed on was you know the interpersonal dynamics it feels like in the role that you're in, like what is the dynamic between you and the director?

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What is the dynamic between you and the actor, who needs your direction and needs your vision in order to be successful?

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I would say the most important part of any dynamic across the board is trust, and it's one of the hardest things, because every time you start a show, you start from scratch.

00:17:52.432 --> 00:18:02.488
It's a brand new company of people, it's a brand new text, it's a brand new idea, everything is brand new, and so you have to very swiftly earn people's trust across the board.

00:18:03.009 --> 00:18:20.608
So, with actors, it's mostly about making sure that they know that I'm on their side, that I'm on their team, that I will advocate for them no matter what, that I will support them no matter what they're going through, all with an eye on making sure that they can do their best work every time they're up on stage.

00:18:20.608 --> 00:18:22.580
With a director, it's something similar.

00:18:22.580 --> 00:18:29.316
It's really hard to work with a director for the first time because that relationship is so intimate.

00:18:29.316 --> 00:18:44.096
You spend so much time with a director trying to understand their vision and then help them articulate it and build it and organize things around that creative idea so that you can move things in the right direction.

00:18:44.096 --> 00:18:47.926
And if it's a new relationship, it's hard to be like don't worry, I got this.

00:18:47.926 --> 00:18:50.703
Like, just trust me, If you let me schedule it like this, we'll get it all done.

00:18:50.703 --> 00:18:59.571
It's definitely easier when you've worked with people multiple times, because there's a vocabulary there, there's a trust, but it's always it's always about trust.

00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.403
So I want to dig a little bit deeper on that thought there.

00:19:02.403 --> 00:19:16.673
So the director has a vision for what they want to bring to life and their interpretation effectively of the original work in some cases, or the new work, whatever it may be.

00:19:16.673 --> 00:19:27.962
They have the vision for how they're going to bring this to life and, as the production stage manager, your job is to sort of understand that vision and to translate it to reality.

00:19:27.962 --> 00:19:29.286
Is that the right way to put it?

00:19:29.586 --> 00:19:30.327
For the most part.

00:19:30.327 --> 00:19:44.133
Yes, I don't want to say that a production stage manager is a miracle worker by any means, but it's sort of like I'm the person that translates the creative idea into logistically how to make it happen.

00:19:44.133 --> 00:20:12.925
So if a director says I want this person to instantly change a costume in a poof of smoke and then be able to leap on top of this set piece all to eight counts of music, then it's up to me to communicate to the costume designer, the set designer, the music director and figure out how are we going to accomplish this idea in a safe, logistical way that we can recreate eight times a week that the actor feels good about.

00:20:12.925 --> 00:20:14.453
That we know, you know, like it's it's.

00:20:14.453 --> 00:20:17.306
I feel like I'm more of a translator than anything.

00:20:17.688 --> 00:20:21.240
And this is, of course, a business where there's no big personalities and egos.

00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:26.150
Oh no, I'm sure it all goes smoothly all the time?

00:20:26.150 --> 00:20:30.022
How do you deal with big personalities and egos?

00:20:30.443 --> 00:20:30.845
Empathy.

00:20:30.845 --> 00:20:41.401
It's always empathy and it's always trying to just sort of see people for the humans that they are and understanding that ego comes from a place and we all have it.

00:20:41.401 --> 00:20:42.761
I have an ego.

00:20:42.761 --> 00:20:48.685
I can deeply relate to someone who's feeling threatened in an ego kind of a way.

00:20:48.685 --> 00:20:52.749
I can deeply relate to someone who's feeling insecure or doubting you can meet demands.

00:20:52.749 --> 00:21:10.813
That also sort of builds that trust and makes it so that the big personality feels less overwhelming.

00:21:11.621 --> 00:21:16.348
So, going back to your journey, you get your first job.

00:21:16.348 --> 00:21:18.272
You're moving forward.

00:21:18.272 --> 00:21:21.326
How did you build this skill set?

00:21:21.326 --> 00:21:23.874
Talk to us about some of those early jobs.

00:21:23.874 --> 00:21:26.441
You can sort of, I guess, maybe lump them together if you want to.

00:21:26.441 --> 00:21:27.602
But how did you build your skill set?

00:21:27.602 --> 00:21:28.522
Talk to us about some of those early jobs.

00:21:28.563 --> 00:21:30.904
You can sort of, I guess, maybe lump them together if you want to, but how did you build your skill set?

00:21:30.904 --> 00:21:50.076
I feel like Doing is the best way to learn in this particular line of work, because every day is different as a stage manager and every show that you work on is different and I don't want to disparage anyone who goes to school for this, because I wish that I had.

00:21:50.076 --> 00:21:58.387
I feel like I would have probably had more of an arsenal of information at hand if I had gone to school for it, had more of an arsenal of information at hand if I had gone to school for it.

00:21:58.387 --> 00:22:08.835
But I feel like each show that I do, even now, I learn something new every time, and it is always sort of sparking kind of a new, creative way of approaching problems.

00:22:08.835 --> 00:22:21.471
But it's also creating this Rolodex of information of being able to see a problem before it becomes a problem, because I remember, like oh, that show that I did five years ago where they told me that this wasn't going to be an issue, and then it was an issue.

00:22:21.471 --> 00:22:26.550
It's probably going to be an issue on this show too, so maybe I'll try to get ahead of it as opposed to waiting until it blows up.

00:22:27.593 --> 00:22:31.205
But when you start out in this line of work.

00:22:31.205 --> 00:22:41.967
There's a ladder that you have to climb, so the production stage manager is at the top of the team of stage managers, then there's a stage manager, an assistant stage manager, a production assistant.

00:22:41.967 --> 00:23:00.948
There's sort of a hierarchy, and when you start at the bottom of the ladder as a production assistant, you don't have much responsibility, but you still get to be in the room and so as a PA that we call them PAs you get to watch, and I feel like when I was a PA, I was a sponge.

00:23:00.948 --> 00:23:04.076
I was soaking everything in from every moment I was eager to.

00:23:04.076 --> 00:23:12.786
I've always been very ambitious and competitive, so I was always sort of eager to be the best PA in the room and like the one who's got the most information and the one that you could trust the most.

00:23:13.186 --> 00:23:17.597
But those opportunities, as tedious as they were, you don't make any money, you don't have any responsibility.

00:23:17.597 --> 00:23:39.653
You learn so much because you get to watch, and I feel like I built my skillset from a handful of mentors that I really respect and appreciate, but also from people that I didn't necessarily jive with on a professional level, that I only worked with once, as opposed to multiple times, because our styles weren't quite the same, because you can learn from that too.

00:23:39.653 --> 00:23:40.276
You can learn.

00:23:40.276 --> 00:23:40.636
You know what.

00:23:40.636 --> 00:23:48.579
I wouldn't have handled that situation like that and file that away into the Rolodex of like, okay, if I was ever faced with that, I would do something totally different.

00:23:48.579 --> 00:23:57.278
So all of those experiences, I sort of feel like it just builds this arsenal of information about how I would want to handle something.

00:23:59.130 --> 00:24:07.778
Talk about how you would ramp up a show, let's say, from like I don't even know table read to rehearsals, to technical rehearsals, to opening night.

00:24:07.778 --> 00:24:19.511
I mean, is it just an anxiety ladder that you're kind of ramping up as you go, because I can imagine opening night is like amazing, right, but everybody's nervous, everyone wants it to go perfectly.

00:24:19.511 --> 00:24:25.653
But talk about ramping it up from stage one to we are doing a show tonight, people.

00:24:25.693 --> 00:24:26.175
Sure, sure.

00:24:26.175 --> 00:24:42.275
I think the thing that people don't realize is, before a first rehearsal, there's already been months and months, and months, sometimes years of work that go into putting a show together, especially a new work.

00:24:42.275 --> 00:24:56.577
Sometimes pieces have been in development for years before they actually see a stage, and so I feel like, at least from my perspective, there's so much that happens behind the scenes before anyone really starts on contract.

00:24:56.577 --> 00:25:04.953
There's a lot of organizing, there's a lot of meetings, there's a lot of design conversations, there's sort of the fleshing out of ideas, there's assembling the team of.

00:25:04.953 --> 00:25:11.849
You know, I really think that the set needs to be something like this who would be the most appropriate designer who could help us realize this vision?

00:25:11.849 --> 00:25:20.954
It's building the team, it's articulating the ideas and then it's also about staffing, like finding the right cast and the auditions.

00:25:20.954 --> 00:25:22.538
Once you get to the first rehearsal.

00:25:23.164 --> 00:25:27.896
It's a similar process where it starts, like you just said, at the table where you have the text.

00:25:27.896 --> 00:25:30.334
Everyone sits down together and reads the text.

00:25:30.334 --> 00:25:32.805
If it's new, there's opportunity to rewrite.

00:25:32.805 --> 00:25:46.895
If it's Shakespeare, there's not necessarily much rewriting to be done, but there's still so much to dig into with each character and what is the approach of this particular production and why are we here and why are we doing this.

00:25:46.895 --> 00:26:00.617
And then we get on our feet and then it's sort of trying to put it in our bodies and find a way to have these complete strangers interact with each other like they're lovers or family, and building the backstory and finding the movement that also makes sense.

00:26:01.118 --> 00:26:13.170
Then sometimes, if it's a musical, you layer in the music, you layer in the choreography, you add all these layers in bit by bit until you get to something that feels like a fully realized production within a rehearsal room.

00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:30.772
Then you have to pick it up and move it to a theater and then it's more layers, then it's you add costumes and you add microphones and you add lights and sound, and I think the whole process is just sort of about adding different layers until you get to that fully realized, completed product.

00:26:30.772 --> 00:26:32.817
And it's very stressful.

00:26:32.817 --> 00:26:34.170
So again, totally easy.

00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:34.773
It's so easy, piece of cake.

00:26:34.794 --> 00:26:35.238
It's very stressful.

00:26:35.238 --> 00:26:35.801
So, again, totally easy.

00:26:35.801 --> 00:26:36.244
Oh yeah, it's so easy.

00:26:36.244 --> 00:26:38.946
Piece of cake.

00:26:38.946 --> 00:26:41.808
That is great, though I love that you just walked us through that.

00:26:41.808 --> 00:26:46.333
So, getting back to your journey a little bit, though, so you're soaking it up like a sponge.

00:26:46.333 --> 00:26:51.936
You have mentors that you're looking to to kind of lead you down the path and show you the rope, so to speak.

00:26:51.936 --> 00:26:56.260
How do you handle the next show?

00:26:56.260 --> 00:27:08.113
Like not knowing when this production ends, like I got to find another job, and how did you go from that first job, where you all of a sudden have some responsibility, to the next and the next?

00:27:08.113 --> 00:27:10.586
Do you remember that transition and how it happened?

00:27:10.846 --> 00:27:17.063
Oh, I remember it because it's the most stressful thing ever, I'm sure it still happens.

00:27:17.163 --> 00:27:29.404
Like I still think anytime I get a Broadway show that this is probably my last one, that no one's ever going to hire me again, like there's a there's a humility that being a freelance worker sort of instills in you.

00:27:29.404 --> 00:27:32.892
That's hard to hard to shed.

00:27:32.892 --> 00:27:42.315
And so I always remember that feeling of like I had I got my first Broadway show and then I was like, oh no, how do I get another one?

00:27:42.315 --> 00:27:46.593
Like I can't keep calling my friend Lindsay and being like, do you have any other jobs you want to turn down?

00:27:46.593 --> 00:27:51.329
Um, and so for me it was just a lot of um asking questions.

00:27:51.329 --> 00:27:58.944
And if you ask the right question enough times to the right person, they'll they're someone will help you.

00:27:59.365 --> 00:28:07.454
And I remember after my first show I was or, as I was still in it, I was asking questions like well, I don't, I don't quite know what to do next.

00:28:07.454 --> 00:28:09.484
Like I don't know how to find my next opportunity.

00:28:09.484 --> 00:28:20.853
And the production stage manager I was working with at the time made me feel pretty confident that the next time he got a show he would ask me to do the next one with him.

00:28:20.853 --> 00:28:22.096
But you never know when that is.

00:28:22.096 --> 00:28:35.909
But I asked enough people that the head carpenter at that theater said hey, when this show loads out, do you want to come be on my carpentry crew and you can make some local one money and help us get the set out of the theater and I was like, yes, I do.

00:28:36.190 --> 00:28:51.314
It's sort of about asking a lot of questions and then saying yes to as much as possible, but even now, you barely get a show to opening and it's already like, okay, what am I going to do three months from now?

00:28:51.314 --> 00:28:52.096
I got to start sending emails to this person.

00:28:52.096 --> 00:28:52.778
I got to go have coffee with this person.

00:28:52.778 --> 00:28:54.240
I got to see if this is still an opportunity.

00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:55.280
What is this person doing next?

00:28:55.280 --> 00:28:57.884
It's always sort of like the game of.

00:28:57.884 --> 00:29:00.769
It is really stressful because you have to keep playing.

00:29:00.769 --> 00:29:01.912
You can't stop playing.

00:29:02.452 --> 00:29:10.067
Yeah, I love that you said that too, that there's people that you're working with and they're thinking the same thing and some of them have a show lined up and some don't.

00:29:10.067 --> 00:29:22.488
I used to hear that from my actor friends quite a bit, that you know the people who were working, the movie crew or whatever, they would all kind of go as a group right and kind of go to that next thing or whatever it was.

00:29:22.488 --> 00:29:27.967
I mean, at this point, you, you, you have so many credits, so many amazing credits to your name.

00:29:27.967 --> 00:29:35.173
I'm just wondering, you know I'm sure people are coming to you and saying we begging you to be, you know, do their production, Do you have an agent?

00:29:35.173 --> 00:29:42.056
Does anybody in this field have an agent to get them work, or is it always just trying to latch on to that next great production?

00:29:42.144 --> 00:29:43.048
For stage managers.

00:29:43.048 --> 00:29:43.750
We're on our own.

00:29:43.750 --> 00:29:52.275
There is no one helping us, there's no agent, there's no manager, it's just sort of you yourself and you and that's it.

00:29:52.275 --> 00:29:54.246
So it's hard, it's hard.

00:29:54.547 --> 00:29:59.338
Has there ever been a moment where the phone started to ring instead of you calling out Like?

00:29:59.338 --> 00:30:02.769
Have you reached a point where you're established enough that the phone rings?

00:30:03.352 --> 00:30:14.574
Yes, I, my, my, my humble self was having a really hard time admitting that, because it just doesn't quite feel real that I've I've gotten to that point in my career.

00:30:14.574 --> 00:30:27.432
But yes, I just opened the previous show that I did, an Enemy of the People, and the director of that show, not like a week later, said, hey, the next show I'm doing is Romeo and Juliet.

00:30:27.432 --> 00:30:28.435
Do you want to do that one too?

00:30:28.435 --> 00:30:35.047
And I have had interviews for other shows and other management companies asking about my availability.

00:30:35.047 --> 00:30:37.575
So I'm getting there.

00:30:37.575 --> 00:30:44.955
I don't want to get cocky or too confident, because at any moment it could change, but I feel like I'm just now getting to that point in my career.

00:30:45.726 --> 00:30:50.144
Talk a little bit about the schedule, because you know we're talking about.

00:30:50.144 --> 00:30:53.811
You know, working for three months on a show and then going to the next one.

00:30:53.811 --> 00:31:05.509
I assume when you're working on a show it's seven days a week crazy hours and then you have this gap, right Maybe between shows, where you're just like what's next?

00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:06.351
What am I going to do?

00:31:06.351 --> 00:31:10.836
So it feels to me like it's 100 miles an hour and then it's two miles an hour.

00:31:10.836 --> 00:31:12.064
Right, that is very accurate.

00:31:12.184 --> 00:31:18.974
That kind of a world, yeah, it's very accurate, I will say, because we are an industry that is powered by unions.

00:31:18.974 --> 00:31:22.539
We don't ever work seven days a week, but we do work six days a week.

00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:43.047
So it is I don't know if that's much better, but it is that it's sort of full throttle to get you to opening night and then, even after opening, when you think things will calm down, there's still another layer of work that needs to be done to maintain the show, and it's like that up until you close a show.

00:31:43.047 --> 00:31:52.859
I've been fortunate that the shows that I've done recently have had not unlimited runs but runs that I trust are not going to get cut short.

00:31:52.859 --> 00:32:00.698
There are some shows that open on Broadway that close a week or two later because they don't have enough ticket sales.

00:32:00.698 --> 00:32:09.550
The advance is not good enough and it's heartbreaking to think about all the work that goes into those shows and then it's just pulled away out from under you.

00:32:09.550 --> 00:32:11.878
There's no way to prepare for that.

00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:21.419
So I've been really fortunate lately that my jobs have kind of lasted long enough that I've been able to line up my next one, and sometimes there is overlap.

00:32:21.419 --> 00:32:31.516
I feel sort of like January is often a time when new shows start, or August, so you can start a show in January and maybe take it through the spring and then have a month off over the summer.

00:32:31.516 --> 00:32:43.951
But also from my perspective, in my line of work there's not a lot of time off because rehearsal might start in August but my job might start in June because there's so much work that needs to go into getting everything ready for that August start.

00:32:43.951 --> 00:32:50.256
So January and August are kind of when things tend to start for new productions.

00:32:50.836 --> 00:33:01.380
As you look at I mean, I'm floored by everything I'm hearing and I can't imagine the intensity, the pressure, the excitement, the thrill, all that stuff as you look back at your journey.

00:33:01.380 --> 00:33:09.267
I'm curious about moments that stand out, you know, as you deal with chaos and pressure and intensity.

00:33:09.267 --> 00:33:20.712
Has there ever been a moment in a play where everything, all of a sudden, while you were alive, went completely wrong and you needed to somehow scramble to figure it out and get through it?

00:33:20.712 --> 00:33:21.515
Never.

00:33:21.755 --> 00:33:26.830
tuesday can you?

00:33:26.851 --> 00:33:36.315
think of like a, a standout moment that, like you, saved the day you had to get through it um, I mean, all the time like that it happens happens all the time.

00:33:36.355 --> 00:33:52.630
That's kind of one of the most exciting parts of of doing theater is that the odds are, because you have to do the same show so many times, something's going to go wrong, and the bigger the show the odds are, the more chances that there are going to be something that goes wrong.

00:33:52.630 --> 00:34:04.665
So working on Beetlejuice on Broadway was probably the show that we had the most things go wrong with, because it's the biggest show I've ever done in terms of scope.

00:34:04.665 --> 00:34:17.108
Just the technical elements of that show were massive and it just meant that if there's a hundred different pieces of automation versus the show I'm doing right now, there's only three.

00:34:17.108 --> 00:34:21.528
You know, like the hundred pieces like there there's probably going to be something that fails.

00:34:21.608 --> 00:34:23.735
Exactly so.

00:34:23.735 --> 00:34:36.840
You get very good at troubleshooting and you can either troubleshoot your way to a solution without the audience knowing, or, if the problem is so severe, you have to stop the show.

00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:46.891
Then it's about stopping a freight train when it is full speed ahead, fixing a problem and then finding a way to getting it back up and running.

00:34:46.891 --> 00:34:49.938
The good news is audiences tend to love that.

00:34:49.938 --> 00:34:53.898
They tend to love when a show stops because they really feel like they're seeing something special.

00:34:53.898 --> 00:35:06.974
When a show stops because they really feel like they're seeing something special, I did a show on Broadway with Tony Danza a while back, and anytime we would have to stop the show for a technical reason, tony would come out on stage and chat with the audience, and people loved it.

00:35:07.034 --> 00:35:07.697
So that's great.

00:35:07.804 --> 00:35:12.771
Like if we needed 15 minutes to solve a problem, tony would be like I got it and he would go entertain people.

00:35:12.771 --> 00:35:25.632
So, thankfully, audiences are usually pretty amenable to things like that, but behind the scenes it's like it's chaos, trying to organize everybody's panic and say here's how we're going to fix it.

00:35:25.632 --> 00:35:26.293
We need to do this.

00:35:26.293 --> 00:35:29.289
You're going here, you say this, then we do this and then we're fine.

00:35:30.032 --> 00:35:37.168
Since we're on this subject, how do you handle safety, because I've heard a million stories about things happening on stage.

00:35:37.168 --> 00:35:52.898
Obviously there's some very dangerous circumstances, whether it be lights coming down and staging and things of that nature, but also there's been real swords put in place of fake swords and things of that nature and people really could get hurt.

00:35:52.898 --> 00:35:55.219
So have you had any experiences like that?

00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:58.461
How do you safeguard against things like that and how do you handle it?

00:35:58.461 --> 00:36:00.126
I assume you're in charge of all of that.

00:36:00.407 --> 00:36:00.769
There are.

00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:03.885
There are multiple departments that are, uh, that have their eye on safety.

00:36:03.885 --> 00:36:19.119
I would say Um, but that's, for me personally, always one of my biggest concerns is making sure that things are safe, and my brain maybe also as a mother is always sort of working in that way of like trying to see the problem before it becomes a problem and getting ahead of it.

00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:29.612
And so, from the beginning of a process, I try to like my brain is just wired that way to sort of see a thing and be like how are we going to keep that person safe?

00:36:29.612 --> 00:36:56.956
For example, we're doing the show that I'm doing right now involves actors running around in the grid, which is sort of like the catwalk system that exists over the stage, and before we even started rehearsal, we were in epic conversations about how to make the grid safe, how to make sure we can strap people into harnesses if they're worried about falling.

00:36:56.956 --> 00:37:01.608
What kind of extra safeguards can we put in place to make sure that when people are up there, if they slip or trip or anything like that, no one is going to be falling from the grid?

00:37:01.608 --> 00:37:05.846
Um, and, like I said, there's multiple departments who have their eye on that.

00:37:05.846 --> 00:37:11.818
So there's always sort of um, plenty of people who are making sure that that's the case.

00:37:12.126 --> 00:37:20.934
I also always say, whenever we get to the theater for the first time to the cast my first priority is always safety, always, always, always.

00:37:20.934 --> 00:37:26.356
And if anyone feels unsafe, ever in any way, for any reason, stop and we will fix it.

00:37:26.356 --> 00:37:49.396
If you need a flashlight, if you need more glow tape over here, if this costume piece is making it so that you can't walk, if you can't see where you're going, on that, like, whatever those things are, I always make sure that myself and my team are all over that and that we prioritize it from the beginning, because it's a dangerous industry that we work in and people's bodies are all that they have, and so I just want to protect the bodies as much as I can.

00:37:50.864 --> 00:37:51.827
I'm so glad you said that.

00:37:51.827 --> 00:38:02.528
How is it something in the theater where you can just see in the dark automatically, like because I'm always like at a performance and the lights go out and like things are happening up on stage.

00:38:02.528 --> 00:38:08.271
I'm like, how does anybody see, or do you just know every square inch of that stage and backstage?

00:38:08.271 --> 00:38:11.442
And how does everybody see when you're making set?

00:38:11.461 --> 00:38:11.963
changes.

00:38:11.963 --> 00:38:13.246
There's little tricks, um.

00:38:13.246 --> 00:38:18.208
One of the things that we use a lot of is called glow tape, which is just like a like.

00:38:18.208 --> 00:38:24.952
It looks like a regular piece of yellow tape, but if you charge it with a light of any sort and then you turn the lights out, it glows.

00:38:24.952 --> 00:38:39.510
So it's sort of like a glow in the dark tape, and my team and I always make sure that before we let the cast get anywhere on stage, we walk the stage ourselves and we put glow tape along the edge to make sure that no one falls off.

00:38:39.831 --> 00:38:45.554
We look at the steps and make sure we don't need to add anything there so that you can see backstage.

00:38:45.554 --> 00:38:52.795
Like the stage that I'm working on right now, backstage is covered with neon gaff tape so that you can see this is a hard edge.

00:38:52.795 --> 00:38:56.190
This is a step Don't run into this because it's dark backstage too.

00:38:56.190 --> 00:38:59.818
So it's sort of like a step that happens before everybody gets there.

00:38:59.818 --> 00:39:15.471
Also, for me as the production stage manager because I end up calling all of the cues during the shows I usually have an infrared camera that is on the stage so that when everything blacks out and the audience can't see anything, I still can.

00:39:15.471 --> 00:39:25.195
So I can see what the actors are doing, I can see where they're going, I can make sure everyone is safe, and if someone isn't safe, I'm the only one who has eyes on it and then can alert my team.

00:39:25.195 --> 00:39:26.097
Something has happened.

00:39:26.097 --> 00:39:28.972
Check in with this person, do we need to address something?

00:39:28.972 --> 00:39:32.007
So it's sort of like I have eyes in the dark, which is really cool.

00:39:32.949 --> 00:39:34.190
Very cool yeah, which is really cool, very cool.

00:39:34.190 --> 00:39:34.969
Yeah, tips and tricks right there.

00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:41.717
As we're having this conversation, I'm looking behind you and it feels like a very organized house that I'm looking at.

00:39:41.717 --> 00:39:44.599
I imagine this carries over to everything you do.

00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:46.340
For the most part.

00:39:46.340 --> 00:39:58.072
Yes, I do have an eight-year-old so we do live in like a bit of a level of constant chaos.

00:39:58.072 --> 00:39:59.576
But she also prioritizes organization.

00:39:59.576 --> 00:40:01.340
She like everything, sort of has a place.

00:40:01.340 --> 00:40:04.746
Her books are all color coordinated, so like she values my organization, I would say as well.

00:40:04.766 --> 00:40:08.574
Do you feel like this is a career journey?

00:40:08.574 --> 00:40:11.179
So do you feel like you've reached the dream?

00:40:11.179 --> 00:40:21.664
At this point I mean, I'm just hearing you speak and the joy you know that comes from you talking about your job Do you feel that this is the pinnacle and that it doesn't get any better than this?

00:40:22.086 --> 00:40:25.815
I mean, Broadway is always the dream right, Like there's nothing better than Broadway.

00:40:25.815 --> 00:40:27.490
There's nowhere else to go from here.

00:40:27.550 --> 00:40:29.619
This is sort of like this, is it?

00:40:29.619 --> 00:40:44.427
And I always remind myself, whenever the job feels really hard, that there's only 41 Broadway theaters in New York and there's no Broadway outside of New York, and so there's only 41 people at any given moment in the whole world who get to do what I do.

00:40:44.427 --> 00:40:58.429
And it's like a really special, cool thing and I remember being a production assistant, being at the bottom of that career ladder and looking up and just thinking like I want to do that and I know that I can, I'd be so good, thinking like I want to do that and I know that I can, I'd be so good at it, I want to do it.

00:40:58.429 --> 00:41:01.688
And then realizing that like, oh, I did it, I actually did it.

00:41:01.688 --> 00:41:13.153
It's, it's something that I'm really proud of and I don't I don't often let myself say that out loud, but like I worked really hard to get here and I'm I'm really proud to be here and I I want to.

00:41:13.153 --> 00:41:14.916
I want to stay at this level.

00:41:14.916 --> 00:41:15.376
I love it.

00:41:15.677 --> 00:41:22.012
What are some of your favorite moments from along the way, whether it be a performance, whether it be a production that you put together.

00:41:22.012 --> 00:41:23.672
What are some of those standout things?

00:41:24.467 --> 00:41:25.731
Oh, that's a really good question.

00:41:25.731 --> 00:41:38.789
I feel like some of my fondest and proudest moments are from Beetlejuice, just because it was such a big show, but it was also one of the only shows that I was a part of from the beginning.

00:41:38.789 --> 00:41:53.735
I worked on that show for about six years, from start to finish, and when I say start, I mean I did readings of it, which means it's when everybody gets together in a room and reads through the script and talks about it and makes changes.

00:41:53.735 --> 00:42:00.755
You might have a presentation at the end for designers or for investors, but the readings are sort of where the development happens.

00:42:00.755 --> 00:42:02.010
I did several readings.

00:42:02.626 --> 00:42:08.231
We took the show out of town to DC where we put it up for the first time with all of the technical elements.

00:42:08.231 --> 00:42:10.873
We brought it to Broadway and did the same thing.

00:42:10.873 --> 00:42:12.844
We got shut down because of the pandemic.

00:42:12.844 --> 00:42:16.255
Then we got to bring it back to a different theater after the pandemic.

00:42:16.255 --> 00:42:28.211
It's been one of the most incredible journeys to be with the show from the beginning and see how much it evolved over the course of all these different iterations and knowing that I had a part in all of them.

00:42:28.606 --> 00:42:35.271
Do you have like a dream show that you want to work on, something that like is that, oh, the pinnacle.

00:42:35.271 --> 00:42:41.360
Like, oh, that would be amazing if I could work with this director or with that actor on that particular show.

00:42:41.764 --> 00:42:42.809
That's a good question too.

00:42:42.809 --> 00:43:02.583
Honestly, no, I don't, only because I I feel like For me I don't want to say beggars can't be choosers, but I'm always just sort of happy for any opportunity to work in theater and I feel like I try to find the silver lining in all the situations.

00:43:02.583 --> 00:43:16.632
So any show is a good show for me, for more women.

00:43:16.632 --> 00:43:19.686
It's an industry that has been very male dominated for a long time and I would say I think all of the directors I've worked for so far have been men.

00:43:19.686 --> 00:43:26.833
So I would love to work with a female director, I would love to work with more female designers, and I can see the industry kind of moving in that direction.

00:43:26.833 --> 00:43:29.077
So I think that's definitely a goal for me.

00:43:29.918 --> 00:43:35.199
I'm curious how has the industry changed in the time that you've been in it?

00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:36.733
At this point you have some tenure.

00:43:36.733 --> 00:43:38.340
How have you seen things change?

00:43:38.822 --> 00:43:49.753
That is so weird to think about me having tenure I still sort of feel like sometimes like I'm just starting out, but no, I guess it's been a while.

00:43:49.753 --> 00:43:57.030
I feel like one of the biggest things that I've seen change is the results of the pandemic.

00:43:57.030 --> 00:44:16.817
Honestly, this industry is built on the mantra the show must go on, and so when I first started in the industry, there was nothing that could keep an actor off stage, whether they had no voice or they were incredibly ill or they were injured or their mother died or you know, there was nothing that would keep an actor from performing.

00:44:16.817 --> 00:44:18.481
Nobody missed work.

00:44:18.481 --> 00:44:20.032
Everybody just did it was.

00:44:20.032 --> 00:44:22.257
You just kept the curtain up, no matter what.

00:44:23.059 --> 00:44:44.074
And since the pandemic, I feel there's been a shift, not universally, but enough of a shift on a small scale, of people prioritizing mental health and bodies and wellness and family in a way that I didn't see when I first started, and I think that that's a huge plus.

00:44:44.074 --> 00:44:52.195
I think that that's a huge problem in the industry that the schedule is brutal and the things that we ask actors and crew people to do.

00:44:52.195 --> 00:44:53.518
It's hard.

00:44:53.518 --> 00:44:57.442
And I think it's so important that now people are sort of saying you know what?

00:44:57.442 --> 00:45:01.456
I'm tired, I need to take a day for myself, or my kid has a baseball game.

00:45:01.456 --> 00:45:05.735
I'm going to go to the baseball game, I'm going to see my kid, or I don't want to miss this wedding.

00:45:05.735 --> 00:45:20.268
My mother is sick, I am sick, my body is hurt, like all these things never used to be enough of an excuse and now it's not questioned, which I mean I guess it is sometimes, but it feels like definitely a good shift in the right direction.

00:45:21.490 --> 00:45:25.762
I'm almost afraid to ask this question because I'm afraid of the answer, but I have to ask it anyway.

00:45:25.762 --> 00:45:43.699
Can you think of a big mistake that you made, where you're like oh my God, I can't believe I didn't think of X, y or Z, I'll never do that again, something that, because you said it's unpredictable and it's a very live and learn kind of a profession, it just seems so chaotic to me.

00:45:43.699 --> 00:45:47.472
There has to be something that you're like I can't believe I didn't think of.

00:45:47.934 --> 00:45:53.103
X, I think I mean sure I've made a hundred mistakes every week.

00:45:53.103 --> 00:46:08.579
The mistakes are boundless, because you are sort of always looking at problems in a creative way and trying to solve them in a creative way, and you don't always hit the nail on the head.

00:46:08.579 --> 00:46:11.797
I'm trying to think of a specific example.

00:46:12.851 --> 00:46:20.742
Has anyone ever gotten hurt, like on one of your shows or anything like that, because that has to be the worst yeah, I mean definitely that's that's.

00:46:20.971 --> 00:46:22.717
That is the worst, that's absolutely the worst.

00:46:22.717 --> 00:46:31.797
Yeah, um, I feel like some of the biggest mistakes I've made have been, um, how to approach an actor in crisis.

00:46:31.797 --> 00:46:46.958
Because actors are, they can be big personalities and, in the name of sort of protecting them and supporting them, you want to give them what they need, but also some actors are I don't want to.

00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:47.721
You can say it.

00:46:47.721 --> 00:46:48.583
You can say it.

00:46:49.871 --> 00:46:51.697
Some actors are not to be trusted, right.

00:46:51.697 --> 00:46:52.679
Some actors can be vindictive.

00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:53.284
Some actors can be vindictive.

00:46:53.284 --> 00:46:59.202
Some actors can be manipulative, and if you say just the wrong thing, it can be used against you.

00:46:59.202 --> 00:47:00.952
And I feel sort of like I've I've.

00:47:00.952 --> 00:47:07.393
I've misstepped a couple of times with actors trying to solve problems in a way that felt productive to me.

00:47:07.393 --> 00:47:11.443
That was then used against me or came back to bite me in a different way.

00:47:11.443 --> 00:47:19.059
So I feel like it's been more like not approaching actor problems with the right touch, I guess.

00:47:19.500 --> 00:47:20.001
Interesting.

00:47:20.202 --> 00:47:21.003
Yeah, it's a good answer.

00:47:21.992 --> 00:47:29.021
Well, we've reached the point of our journey where we like to ask our guests for advice.

00:47:29.021 --> 00:47:32.820
So you've had a remarkable journey.

00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:35.429
You've achieved some incredible things.

00:47:35.429 --> 00:47:38.400
You're one of only 41 people who are doing what you do right now.

00:47:38.501 --> 00:47:53.750
So I guess the roadmap to getting exactly where you are might be somewhat challenging, but if there's somebody out there listening who wants to follow your path, wants to be number 42 or replace the person who leaves, whatever it may be, what advice do you have for somebody who wants to be number 42 or replace the person who leaves, whatever it may be?

00:47:53.750 --> 00:47:57.219
What advice do you have for somebody who wants to follow in your footsteps?

00:47:59.534 --> 00:48:04.643
Sure, the thing I always try to tell young people who are trying to do this is say yes.

00:48:04.643 --> 00:48:09.902
Say yes to everything, because you don't know what yes might lead to the next yes.

00:48:09.902 --> 00:48:19.219
I've had several jobs that I've taken reluctantly because I didn't really want to do that project or I was hoping to make more money.

00:48:19.219 --> 00:48:29.132
Whatever the reason, I've said yes to things that I haven't really wanted to do, but then that yes turned into an offer down the road or an opportunity with somebody else.

00:48:29.132 --> 00:48:30.215
So always say yes.

00:48:30.275 --> 00:48:33.079
You never know what yes might lead to something else.

00:48:33.079 --> 00:48:52.050
And then I also feel that and this is impossible for to tell a young person, but patience when you are climbing the ladder will work wonders that I look back on my early years in the business and I learned so much.

00:48:52.050 --> 00:48:59.322
I was so impatient, I was so impatient and I was so frustrated because I just wanted to be doing more and I felt like I was capable of more.

00:48:59.322 --> 00:49:18.809
But if I could go back and tell myself something, it would be just be patient, just watch, just look, absorb, learn, ask all the questions and just trust that who you are and what you do is going to be enough to get you up to the next rung of the ladder and hopefully the next one after that and the next one after that.

00:49:19.472 --> 00:49:21.496
That is absolutely incredible advice.

00:49:21.496 --> 00:49:29.952
We've heard people talk about yes before on this program, but we haven't heard that advice about be patient and let things come you to a certain degree.

00:49:29.952 --> 00:49:32.842
That is really really smart.

00:49:32.842 --> 00:49:36.373
I wish I had adopted that for a meaningful portion of my career.

00:49:36.452 --> 00:49:37.596
I was always what's next?

00:49:37.596 --> 00:49:43.442
What's next, let's go, let's go, rather than absorbing everything that was available to me in the moment.

00:49:43.442 --> 00:49:46.070
So I'm certainly guilty of that myself.

00:49:46.070 --> 00:49:49.034
So that is incredible, incredible advice.

00:49:49.034 --> 00:49:54.784
Well, rachel Boter, thank you so much for making the time for us today.

00:49:54.784 --> 00:50:01.641
Good luck with the continuation of Romeo and Juliet for all of those listening in real time.

00:50:01.641 --> 00:50:03.512
That is Rachel's current production.

00:50:03.512 --> 00:50:07.442
If you come to it later on, I'm sure she'll be on to another great adventure.

00:50:07.442 --> 00:50:09.554
Rachel, thank you so much.

00:50:09.996 --> 00:50:11.159
Thank you so much for having me.

00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:11.900
This was so nice.

00:50:12.682 --> 00:50:23.324
So that was Rachel Botter teaching us once again that an overarching theme or a great way to live life is to just say yes.

00:50:23.324 --> 00:50:26.737
Larry Shea, what are your takeaways from that conversation?

00:50:27.177 --> 00:50:28.141
I love that advice.

00:50:28.141 --> 00:50:41.436
First and foremost, we seem to find that in the entertainment industry, that's, that's a lot of it right, like no matter what it is, that's a big theme, that's a big theme right, because you may be asked to do something that you don't want to do, and rachel said it herself.

00:50:41.576 --> 00:50:50.034
Like I took it, I said yes and then that led to something that I did want to do, and so you never know when that's going to be just around the corner of saying yes.

00:50:50.034 --> 00:50:52.177
So I think that was super impressive.

00:50:52.177 --> 00:50:54.382
I love that she studied acting.00:50:54.382 --> 00:51:01.733


That means that she understands the plight of being on stage and understands what it's like to give a performance right.00:51:01.733 --> 00:51:08.715


But she also did the lighting and set design and, you know, costume design in college.00:51:08.715 --> 00:51:09.918


She did it all right.00:51:09.918 --> 00:51:13.996


So she was a jack of all trades in college and she found a back door.00:51:14.469 --> 00:51:19.041


You know we talk all the time on the show about how there isn't one path right.00:51:19.041 --> 00:51:20.195


There's a lot of different paths.00:51:20.195 --> 00:51:23.500


So this was a friend saying hey, why don't you go give this a shot?00:51:23.500 --> 00:51:25.170


She didn't need the education.00:51:25.170 --> 00:51:36.182


It might have helped, as she said, it might have given her better vocabulary, more ammunition when she actually got these jobs, but she learned them kind of grassroots style and that's one way to go.00:51:36.182 --> 00:51:38.425


You know, it doesn't have to be through education.00:51:38.425 --> 00:51:46.936


So I love that she had a different path that she chose there.00:51:46.936 --> 00:51:49.547


And you know, I know you guys are going to speak to this more, but the patience with climbing the ladder, you know?00:51:49.568 --> 00:51:49.889


Yeah, for sure.00:51:49.889 --> 00:51:50.931


See, take it away.00:51:50.931 --> 00:51:52.315


I mean, that was such great advice.00:51:52.956 --> 00:51:56.123


Look I got to say is that I swear by that.00:51:56.123 --> 00:52:02.998


They're like look, everyone wants to climb the ladder as quickly as possible, but that's not going to be everybody's journey, right?00:52:02.998 --> 00:52:13.139


I mean, you're going to climb it at your own pace and sometimes the pace will be dictated to you, but you just got to keep climbing right, because eventually you will get to the point you you feel successful.00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:14.742


And that's how it was for rachel as well.00:52:14.742 --> 00:52:18.690


You know, I can absolutely attest with a lot of her journey there.00:52:18.690 --> 00:52:57.918


I mean, look for me, uh, there was a lot of just say yes, like I mean, look, we, I did a nascar racing show and I knew nothing about auto racing so they said hey can you talk about auto racing yes, of course I can, and and that's how it starts.00:52:57.998 --> 00:52:59.898


So a lot of times, look, you've got to do something.00:52:59.918 --> 00:53:04.400


You are uncomfortable with to get comfortable in the next gig, and that's a lot of what we want.00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:11.222


To try to relate myself a little bit, sometimes it's okay to feel uncomfortable, you know.00:53:11.222 --> 00:53:19.364


Frankly, that makes you a better be able to, I guess, deal with a thousand balls in the air at one time, every single day.00:53:19.364 --> 00:53:39.938


And then, in addition to that, she needs to be able to take a moment to sit down with somebody and have a conversation and help them see their way through to a role, a part, a vision, and to work through whatever challenge that person has on any particular day, whether it's an actor, whether it's a director.00:53:39.938 --> 00:53:51.057


It just feels like, in a lot of ways, she serves the role of therapist for a production, in addition to being the person who's executing a vision.00:53:51.057 --> 00:53:51.922


And how about?00:53:51.942 --> 00:53:54.931


the fact that she doesn't know where her next job is coming from.00:53:54.931 --> 00:53:57.659


Right, there's no agents, there's no managers.00:53:57.659 --> 00:54:01.373


She literally just has to figure out what's next.00:54:01.373 --> 00:54:17.398


And she's at the highest pinnacle of this career and yet she still has that uneasiness of I'm freelance, I got to find where my next paycheck is coming from, because these shows are not forever, they end and then you have to find something else.00:54:17.398 --> 00:54:23.123


So just her navigating that freelance life that could be a chore unto itself.00:54:23.123 --> 00:54:32.862


So just a high level of respect for her actually navigating this profession in this way it's she must be so good at what she does because she continuously works.00:54:32.862 --> 00:54:34.478


So we know she's brilliant at what she does because she continuously works.00:54:34.478 --> 00:54:35.333


So we know she's brilliant at what she does, right.00:54:35.693 --> 00:54:36.355


Absolutely.00:54:36.355 --> 00:54:38.981


And that brings me to the number 41.00:54:38.981 --> 00:54:45.101


I think she mentioned that there are 41 people who have her job at this particular point in time.00:54:45.101 --> 00:54:48.693


So clearly she's very good and it's a lot to manage.00:54:48.693 --> 00:54:50.317


I'll end on that.00:54:50.317 --> 00:54:52.922


I did have the chance to see Romeo and Juliet.00:54:52.922 --> 00:54:58.333


I went with my wife very recently and what a production it really.00:54:58.333 --> 00:55:12.710


You know, I had met her at that point, we had spoken at that point a little bit and I was eager to see what she does and how it all comes together and it blew my mind in terms of what goes into that type of a production.00:55:12.710 --> 00:55:15.398


So I was absolutely blown away.00:55:15.398 --> 00:55:16.893


Order from chaos.00:55:16.893 --> 00:55:19.436


It was nuts and it was so much fun.00:55:19.436 --> 00:55:20.996


It was such a great production.00:55:20.996 --> 00:55:23.275


It gives you a whole different perspective on it, right?00:55:23.275 --> 00:55:24.599


It does, no doubt.00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:25.201


No doubt.00:55:25.201 --> 00:55:32.400


I mean there were people in the rafters, there were people sitting on doorways, there were people running down stairwells.00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:35.559


It was absolute controlled chaos.00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:43.681


And we know that Rachel, he's controlling it Was in control of all of that chaos.00:55:43.829 --> 00:55:45.617


So, rachel, I was very impressed.00:55:45.617 --> 00:55:50.742


So, with that, rachel Botter, thank you so much for joining us on this episode.00:55:50.742 --> 00:55:52.737


We also thank you for joining us.00:55:52.737 --> 00:56:01.699


If this episode made you think of someone who could be a great guest, please send us a note through the contact page of our website at norongchoicescom.00:56:01.699 --> 00:56:07.496


While you're there, please check out our blog for a deeper look into each of our guests and episodes.00:56:07.496 --> 00:56:14.561


As mentioned at the start, don't forget to like and follow us on your favorite podcast platform and to connect with us on social media.00:56:14.561 --> 00:56:20.463


You can find us on LinkedIn, instagram, facebook, youtube, tiktok and X.00:56:20.463 --> 00:56:24.942


Your support helps us to keep bringing these incredible stories to life.00:56:24.942 --> 00:56:31.742


On behalf of Larry Shea, tushar Saxena and me, larry Samuels, thank you again for joining us.00:56:31.742 --> 00:56:36.318


We'll be back next week with another inspiring episode of no Wrong Choices.