Sept. 12, 2023

Dive Deep with US Navy SEAL Commander and Robotics Pioneer Doug Horner

Dive Deep with US Navy SEAL Commander and Robotics Pioneer Doug Horner
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Youtube Music podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon
Season 3

What does it take to become a US Navy SEAL Commander? What does it take to become one of the leading minds in robotics and AI? What type of person can achieve both?  Meet Doug Horner.

Doug Horner is a retired US NAVY Seal Commander, current Chairman of Undersea Warfare at the Naval Post Graduate School, brilliant robotics engineer and PhD who has dedicated his career to helping others and “pushing the limits” of what’s possible for both him and technology. During this fascinating episode, Doug shares the story of his journey from the world of finance through SEAL training, discusses what life is like as a SEAL, shares how he pivoted away from active duty towards academics and touches upon some of his biggest achievements in robotics – highlighted by the exploration of Mars and an Arctic adventure that led to an appearance on 60 Minutes.    


To discover more episodes or connect with us:


Chapters

00:02 - Career Journeys of Navy SEAL and Robotics Expert

12:39 - Water Polo and SEAL Training

26:18 - Life as a Navy SEAL

39:25 - Career in Robotics

47:53 - Transitioning Careers and Future Perspectives

01:02:02 - Connecting With No Wrong Choices Community

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:02.685 --> 00:00:13.371
Hello and welcome to the season three premiere episode of no Wrong Choices, a podcast about the adventures of life that explores the career journeys of successful and interesting people.

00:00:13.371 --> 00:00:17.972
I'm Larry Samuels, soon to be joined by the other fellas, tushar Saxena and Larry Shay.

00:00:17.972 --> 00:00:22.632
I want to start off today by thanking everybody who has come along on our journey to date.

00:00:22.632 --> 00:00:31.207
Our podcast is growing beyond our expectations, which has really been great, and y'all are making that happen for us, so thank you.

00:00:31.207 --> 00:00:36.862
Thank you so much For those who might be joining us for the first time and for anyone else who hasn't done this yet.

00:00:36.982 --> 00:00:43.929
Please support us by following no Wrong Choices on your podcasting platform of choice and by giving us a five star rating.

00:00:43.929 --> 00:00:54.091
We also ask that you join our community by following along on LinkedIn, facebook, instagram threads and now X, by searching for the no Wrong Choices podcast.

00:00:54.091 --> 00:00:57.429
You can also connect with us at wwwNoWrongChoicescom.

00:00:57.429 --> 00:01:07.751
This episode features retired US Navy SEAL and the current chairman of the Undersea Warfare Academic Group at the Naval Post Graduate School, doug Horner.

00:01:07.751 --> 00:01:11.650
This should be a fascinating discussion.

00:01:11.650 --> 00:01:13.466
Larry Shay, why don't you lead us into this one?

00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:16.268
You set a mouthful if titles have anything to do with it.

00:01:16.268 --> 00:01:27.887
Yeah, this is a guy who we're super excited to talk to because he doesn't just have one area of expertise, he has a couple, and they're both top level.

00:01:27.887 --> 00:01:32.215
Fascinating things, fascinating careers, right?

00:01:32.215 --> 00:01:34.427
I mean people spend their whole life in the military.

00:01:34.427 --> 00:01:35.302
He's a Navy SEAL.

00:01:35.302 --> 00:01:37.445
People spend their whole life in robotics.

00:01:37.445 --> 00:01:41.751
He specializes in underwater robotics and other fascinating things.

00:01:41.751 --> 00:01:50.409
So you're talking about a guy who is super physical to be a SEAL, super smart to be a SEAL and then uber smart to be in the world of robotics.

00:01:50.409 --> 00:01:51.864
This is someone I want to meet.

00:01:51.864 --> 00:01:57.305
This is someone I want to find out how they got to where they are, and someone who's at the top of a lot of fields.

00:01:57.305 --> 00:01:58.885
So fascinating to talk to.

00:01:58.885 --> 00:01:59.367
Doug Horner.

00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:01.852
So there's a couple things that we're going to talk about here.

00:02:01.852 --> 00:02:02.677
Is that one?

00:02:02.677 --> 00:02:07.811
We're going to have the opportunity to talk with someone in the special operators field, right?

00:02:07.811 --> 00:02:13.671
So these are like the elite of the elite when it comes to warriors in our military.

00:02:13.671 --> 00:02:15.122
But it's not just that.

00:02:15.122 --> 00:02:31.293
When you look at this guy's resume and you see that this man is now involved in the idea of robotics and artificial intelligence and machine learning, well, he's on the cutting edge, the absolute cutting edge of the future of the military.

00:02:31.293 --> 00:02:42.506
So it's not simply what he did as a warrior, he continues to be a warrior and taking that idea of what is warfare into the future, and that is fascinating beyond belief.

00:02:42.506 --> 00:02:43.829
That's sci-fi stuff.

00:02:43.990 --> 00:02:47.504
Yeah, I mean he's got a 30 plus year perspective.

00:02:47.504 --> 00:02:58.213
That began in the field in the most advanced of ways and now he's literally creating the future of robotics for the military in a way.

00:02:58.213 --> 00:03:01.971
So with that, this should be absolutely fascinating.

00:03:01.971 --> 00:03:04.201
Here is Doug Horner Now joining.

00:03:04.201 --> 00:03:15.361
No wrong choices is the retired US Navy SEAL and current chairman of the Undersea Warfare Academic Group at the Naval Post Graduate School, Doug Horner.

00:03:15.361 --> 00:03:16.926
Doug, thank you so much for joining us.

00:03:17.508 --> 00:03:17.868
You're welcome.

00:03:17.868 --> 00:03:18.983
I said so eloquently.

00:03:18.983 --> 00:03:20.206
It's the second time as well.

00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:21.884
Well, it's very funny.

00:03:21.884 --> 00:03:24.908
I was going to say it took me so long to get that out of my mouth.

00:03:24.908 --> 00:03:26.504
What does that actually mean?

00:03:26.504 --> 00:03:28.003
What is your role?

00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:30.522
My role at the post graduate school.

00:03:30.522 --> 00:03:44.447
There's a curriculum that is called the Undersea Warfare Academic Group, and so what happens is students come typically submariners, but also a variety of students from different warfare specialties.

00:03:44.447 --> 00:03:58.112
They come to this curriculum that's known as Undersea Warfare and they get to choose between 10 different curriculum programs master's programs at the post graduate school.

00:03:58.112 --> 00:04:23.408
It includes stuff like mechanical engineering, physics and electrical engineering, and then they add to that courses that are associated with Undersea Warfare, so sonar, tactical oceanography, which deals with the very interesting space of the ocean, and robotics, and so I'm kind of in charge of that.

00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:25.646
You sound like you have the coolest job ever.

00:04:25.646 --> 00:04:29.947
Okay, so I love this job.

00:04:30.047 --> 00:04:30.588
It's a great job.

00:04:30.608 --> 00:04:45.192
It sounds great and first of all it might be a bit insulting but, like you know, like Hunt for Red October is one of my favorite movies in those Tom Clancy books and a lot of what you're saying sounds a great deal of like what obviously, like those books were about.

00:04:45.192 --> 00:04:47.004
There was a book that's one of my favorites.

00:04:47.004 --> 00:04:50.639
It's about the Silent Service.

00:04:50.639 --> 00:05:01.387
It's about the Silent Service, submarine Service and a great deal of those, a great deal of the tales of submariners and you know the great tales during the Cold War, et cetera.

00:05:01.387 --> 00:05:03.848
So it just sounds like one of the best jobs ever.

00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.877
I think you're talking about Blind Man's Bluff, aren't?

00:05:05.918 --> 00:05:05.999
you.

00:05:05.999 --> 00:05:07.202
Yes, blind Man's Bluff.

00:05:07.202 --> 00:05:08.346
Thank you for reminding me.

00:05:08.386 --> 00:05:10.091
Oh, my God, that's one of my favorite books.

00:05:11.101 --> 00:05:12.026
One of my favorite books.

00:05:12.026 --> 00:05:16.014
So let me get back to my original question, which was as a younger man.

00:05:16.014 --> 00:05:19.728
So you obviously are an unbelievably smart person.

00:05:19.728 --> 00:05:24.442
This is not this is without doubt Were you always into?

00:05:24.442 --> 00:05:30.807
Were you always into, let's say, tinkering with you know, whether it be robotics or just tinkering in general?

00:05:30.807 --> 00:05:43.490
And you wanted to be, you wanted to be, you wanted to have, like that, an athletic background and you wanted to have a background of you know, I want to do something more with my life and then incorporate that into my future.

00:05:43.490 --> 00:05:49.365
Or was it just that, look, I kind of need, I just love to tinker with stuff and then I'll find my way later on.

00:05:50.709 --> 00:05:53.906
Yeah, so there's small elements of each of those.

00:05:53.906 --> 00:05:59.769
But I wasn't really like a mechanical kid growing up, but I did like take apart a telephone.

00:05:59.769 --> 00:06:05.172
I was super interested in those dial up telephones and you know how they worked.

00:06:05.172 --> 00:06:08.307
And so my mom gave me a telephone and said have at it.

00:06:08.307 --> 00:06:10.886
And I, you know, obviously I still remember that.

00:06:10.886 --> 00:06:17.451
But you know, growing up I didn't matriculate towards engineering.

00:06:17.451 --> 00:06:35.908
My undergraduate was at Boston University in mathematics and a second degree in economics and I was thinking business and I went from there over into an investment company called Colonial Mutual Funds in Boston and did sales for them for three years.

00:06:35.908 --> 00:06:41.250
So I didn't start off with the idea that I would be ending up where I'm at right now.

00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:44.767
It's been kind of a strange, fun progression.

00:06:45.348 --> 00:06:48.608
And that's a good thing, right, because sometimes that rounds us out and makes us who we are.

00:06:48.608 --> 00:07:00.149
I do want to go back to the beginning, though, because you know, this is a show about the genesis of where our dreams come from and achieving them, and I think it's important to kind of go back and talk a little bit about.

00:07:00.149 --> 00:07:08.564
Before you know it sounds like you had both, you know a mind for becoming a Navy SEAL, and there had to be some physical ability.

00:07:08.564 --> 00:07:14.053
So take me back to the beginning, obviously, what kind of led you down to the SEAL path?

00:07:14.053 --> 00:07:24.249
You could tell that story in your own way, but also the physical aspect of it, because you know, just in preparing for this interview, to read what it takes to be a Navy SEAL is just superhuman.

00:07:24.249 --> 00:07:29.031
So, just, I want to start from the beginning, maybe to when you were a child or a teenager.

00:07:29.031 --> 00:07:29.600
What have you?

00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:34.172
And, in your own way, just tell your story about how you went on that path.

00:07:34.399 --> 00:08:19.310
Yeah, I think it starts with all the time that I spent in or near the water, and so for years I grew up in a place called Lewisboro, new York, and our mom would drop us off at the pool and I would spend my summers swimming and playing ping pong and playing a little bit of tennis in there as well, and I just really enjoyed that, had great friends set and did that for probably five or six years growing up, and so that transitioned over into becoming a competitive swimmer and as a competitive swimmer through high school I graduated as an all state swimmer and then that kind of got me into collegiate sports with swimming again.

00:08:19.310 --> 00:08:22.927
But I didn't do it very long because I was so burned out by that time.

00:08:22.927 --> 00:08:28.223
Anybody that's a swimmer knows that you put so much time in the water to be good, and I wasn't that good.

00:08:28.223 --> 00:08:31.826
So the rewards from coming from swimming.

00:08:31.826 --> 00:08:40.105
You know I wasn't winning races, so I was looking for something to something else to do and I found water polo and so the combination of yeah.

00:08:40.125 --> 00:08:51.065
so for me the combination of swimming and the physicality that's associated and the competition that's associated with a team sport in the water was really transformative for me.

00:08:51.065 --> 00:08:52.009
I really enjoyed that.

00:08:52.009 --> 00:09:02.245
I became president of that club and we traveled around New England playing all kinds of teams and having just a great time, and that has stayed with me over the years.

00:09:02.647 --> 00:09:04.230
Wow, that's really really cool.

00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:09.971
So post college, you get into finance and you're working a few years out.

00:09:09.971 --> 00:09:15.652
When did you start to get the bug and start to think about, you know, pivoting, transitioning?

00:09:15.652 --> 00:09:18.840
Where did the whole SEAL idea come from it?

00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:23.971
came about because of the economic realities of a crash in 88.

00:09:23.971 --> 00:09:39.671
So I was working for again that company, colonial Mutual Funds, and a great company to work for, and I was doing something known as bank sales, so trying to get banks to sell our group of mutual funds.

00:09:39.671 --> 00:09:42.328
And that was based on the Glass-Steevill Act.

00:09:42.328 --> 00:09:47.749
That was new legislation that allowed the flexibility of banks to go ahead and sell mutual funds.

00:09:47.749 --> 00:09:50.768
And so I went from Boston and moved down to Tampa.

00:09:50.768 --> 00:09:52.846
But it was tough going.

00:09:52.846 --> 00:09:57.532
It was a new marketplace and I was making a lot of money as a 24 year old.

00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:01.311
But I also kind of was like, hey, I could be doing this 20 years from now.

00:10:01.311 --> 00:10:03.746
Is this really what you want to be doing with your life?

00:10:03.746 --> 00:10:11.832
And so, you know, I was looking inward and started, and I think Top Gun was out at that point in time.

00:10:11.832 --> 00:10:14.047
I was like, man, that looks pretty good.

00:10:14.047 --> 00:10:21.812
It seems like a place where I could learn some leadership skills and some life skills.

00:10:21.812 --> 00:10:25.828
And so I went into the recruiter and I said what do you got?

00:10:25.828 --> 00:10:34.706
And he said and he took a look at what I've done in the past, right, and saw the water polo stuff and said, hey, I want you to watch this tape.

00:10:34.706 --> 00:10:40.225
And he showed me this seal UDT tape and I was like holy smokes.

00:10:40.225 --> 00:10:44.869
They were doing scuba, right, and there was no bubbles coming out of their scuba rig.

00:10:44.869 --> 00:10:46.926
I was like how in the world are they doing that?

00:10:46.926 --> 00:10:50.206
And I was hooked.

00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:52.905
So that was the naval recruiter.

00:10:54.142 --> 00:10:57.184
Yeah, the naval recruiter in Boston and I had three choices.

00:10:57.184 --> 00:11:09.280
I had to take a battery test and I said I want to be a seal first, and then the second one was an EOD explosive ordinance disposal officer, and the third one would have been a diver a Navy diver by far.

00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:17.466
I also talked to some other folks that were seals and I was all over it.

00:11:17.466 --> 00:11:20.869
I thought this was the best way to live my best life.

00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:22.845
So how does that work?

00:11:22.845 --> 00:11:31.128
Like I'm imagining you're a naval recruiter and people walking off the street all the time saying, hey, I'd like to be a seal.

00:11:31.128 --> 00:11:32.404
That sounds really cool.

00:11:32.404 --> 00:11:37.311
Like how do they know to take you seriously versus somebody else that passes through?

00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:39.203
I don't think they do.

00:11:39.203 --> 00:11:41.047
They just were desperate at that point in time.

00:11:41.047 --> 00:11:42.503
You got to understand this.

00:11:42.503 --> 00:11:43.446
This is like before.

00:11:43.466 --> 00:11:44.568
They couldn't have been that desperate.

00:11:44.589 --> 00:11:51.272
Come on, this is a very average student at a good college, but not a great college.

00:11:51.272 --> 00:11:58.232
But the demand to be a seal at that point in time, when we're talking 88, was not like it is today.

00:11:58.232 --> 00:12:05.686
I don't think that I would get into the seal program today given my academic performance and my athletic performance.

00:12:05.686 --> 00:12:09.243
The level has just increased so high the bar is high.

00:12:10.802 --> 00:12:12.048
So I want to ask you a couple of things here.

00:12:12.048 --> 00:12:19.764
Now one when you were still doing your finance work, were you still involved in water polo at that point?

00:12:20.671 --> 00:12:24.753
Yeah, I would still play a little bit with some masters teams.

00:12:25.931 --> 00:12:32.244
And I could hear how much water polo and you even said like water polo as it's, as a team sport was very influential on you.

00:12:32.244 --> 00:12:39.423
What were some of the things that you gained from from water polo and just, let's say, team sports or being part of a team in general?

00:12:39.423 --> 00:12:44.169
Obviously, being just a swimmer itself, it's a very individualistic sport.

00:12:44.169 --> 00:12:53.162
It's all about you competing against others or even competing against just the clock for the most part, but obviously with water polo you have to rely on others.

00:12:53.162 --> 00:12:54.908
What were some of those things that you pulled away?

00:12:54.948 --> 00:12:55.190
from that.

00:12:55.190 --> 00:13:07.393
So the first thing that you come away with it is a sense of Toughness, right, because you get there is the above water game and there's the underwater game and you can get a lot.

00:13:07.393 --> 00:13:13.293
You could get away with a lot under the waters if you knew how to play correctly, right.

00:13:13.293 --> 00:13:16.149
So there's a physicality that was associated with it.

00:13:16.149 --> 00:13:19.897
That was a lot different from anything that I'd done in in swimming before.

00:13:19.897 --> 00:13:36.283
The second thing was, you know, the reliance on your team and the, the, the kind of person that a water polo, that people gravitated towards, that played water polo, was the kind of person that I kind of wanted to hang out with.

00:13:36.951 --> 00:13:43.714
They were fun people, right and how did that then carry over to you saying, okay, I can take some of these.

00:13:43.714 --> 00:13:55.460
Or did it even, let's say, like when you were thinking about it, you so I did you say, some of the Some of these skills that I had I did in with water polo, they could carry over into my training as a seal, or did that even come into mind?

00:13:56.392 --> 00:13:57.775
It really didn't come into mind.

00:13:57.775 --> 00:14:07.355
I think it was one of the reasons why you maybe the recruiter thought of you know, putting me into Into the seal application process.

00:14:07.355 --> 00:14:20.634
The thing that, more than anything, that I would like to share is that at that point in the time of my life I felt like I I had a confidence, but it was an unrealized confidence.

00:14:20.634 --> 00:14:25.455
I didn't feel I felt like I could be a leader of people, but I didn't know how.

00:14:25.455 --> 00:14:41.240
And In comparison to the jobs that I had, I had the confidence that I could do a better job, but I wanted to fill myself out in life experiences, to do more than just say I thought I could do it right.

00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:41.922
Does that make sense?

00:14:42.442 --> 00:14:46.870
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and you said that before that you were looking inward, you know.

00:14:46.870 --> 00:15:01.179
So you were looking for a way to harness that leadership ability and, from what it sounds like to us, the seals just seemed like a perfect way for you to Fulfill that inward goal of becoming a leader.

00:15:01.179 --> 00:15:02.634
Is that right?

00:15:02.634 --> 00:15:02.916
Is that?

00:15:02.916 --> 00:15:04.423
It did it just fit the bill?

00:15:04.423 --> 00:15:08.496
It was just all of a sudden like boom, this is perfect, just what I need, yeah.

00:15:08.758 --> 00:15:44.260
Yeah, and the other thing that really it was the notion of service right and in the for the nation that that really was kind of missing within business and for me that really was a Strong reason to go there because I was taking a pay cut of more than half Right right and, and so I was going from you know a nice style of living to to something that definitely took me down a step and but it was worth it as far as I was concerned at that point in time in my life.

00:15:45.013 --> 00:15:47.004
So how, how difficult was that?

00:15:47.004 --> 00:15:47.730
Reflection though.

00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:51.730
I mean, was this a series of you walking into the office in the next few hours?

00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:56.169
You're on a plane to get trained, or did you take a couple of weeks and figure out?

00:15:56.169 --> 00:16:04.119
Yeah, this is really gonna be the best thing for me, because it's gonna make make sure that I'm Taking care of that fulfillment aspect of things.

00:16:05.030 --> 00:16:10.102
Yeah, what happened was is that I left the job and I actually traveled in Europe for six weeks.

00:16:10.102 --> 00:16:23.063
And, yeah, I went to Ireland on my own Ireland all the way down to to Germany and Greece, and while I was there, I found out that I got into the program.

00:16:23.466 --> 00:16:25.495
Oh wow in In Greece did you find?

00:16:25.495 --> 00:16:27.321
Out, because that's a beautiful place to find out.

00:16:31.331 --> 00:16:33.235
Yes, yes, to celebrate.

00:16:33.235 --> 00:16:35.142
Yes, absolutely awesome.

00:16:35.142 --> 00:16:37.575
And how do you find out?

00:16:37.575 --> 00:16:38.558
So you're in Greece.

00:16:38.558 --> 00:16:42.780
Did they send a telegram like how does that work?

00:16:46.152 --> 00:16:48.462
They call my parents and I said he's got to come home.

00:16:49.005 --> 00:16:49.710
Oh, that's great Wow.

00:16:49.710 --> 00:16:51.173
So how long?

00:16:51.173 --> 00:16:55.043
Before that from that point was it before training started?

00:16:55.491 --> 00:17:16.579
So the first thing that you do is you go to officer can at school, officer can't schools in Newport, rhode Island, and I reported I think it was on the 25th or 26, right after Thanksgiving of November 1988, and that's then for three or four months and then I go straight, went straight out from there to Coronado, california, for basic underwater demolition school.

00:17:16.941 --> 00:17:24.961
So when you get out to California, you know I think of the the great story when you start college they say take a look to your left, take a look to your right.

00:17:24.961 --> 00:17:27.369
Those two people will not be standing there at the end.

00:17:27.369 --> 00:17:33.890
Well, I think, with the, the Buds program, that that it's a legendary thing that that people don't make it through.

00:17:33.890 --> 00:17:35.757
How many people did you start with?

00:17:37.152 --> 00:17:39.810
Yeah, 103 and graduated.

00:17:39.810 --> 00:17:45.978
We officially graduated with I think it's 40, some number Approximately.

00:17:45.978 --> 00:18:06.534
Wow it was also one of the things that the number of your, of the guys that you started with, that you finished with was 20, approximately 20, and the rest of the other 20 were guys that rolled into the class Because they had previously been injured and classed up with, in my case, class 163.

00:18:06.659 --> 00:18:09.364
Oh, wow, that's amazing that many injuries.

00:18:09.364 --> 00:18:10.892
Because that many injuries?

00:18:10.892 --> 00:18:16.250
Because you have to remember it's the toughest sport on earth, essentially right.

00:18:16.250 --> 00:18:21.398
I mean you are training to become, you know super human, super human.

00:18:21.398 --> 00:18:24.214
Yeah, destruction proof really.

00:18:24.214 --> 00:18:25.900
I mean, from what, what I've read?

00:18:26.823 --> 00:18:35.134
the thing I'd share with you guys is it's not during buds, it's actually after buds that you really learn your craft, and it becomes Harder.

00:18:35.134 --> 00:18:39.678
I mean, that's a wicket that you have to pass through, but that's just really the beginning.

00:18:41.250 --> 00:18:42.974
So take us through training.

00:18:42.974 --> 00:18:49.115
You know what is that process, what are those days, what are you learning like it.

00:18:49.115 --> 00:18:50.621
Can you sort of take us through that journey?

00:18:51.791 --> 00:18:52.534
Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:52.534 --> 00:18:56.478
So you get there and you have about six weeks.

00:18:56.478 --> 00:18:57.560
There's three phases.

00:18:57.560 --> 00:19:00.452
Okay, there is.

00:19:00.452 --> 00:19:03.039
You wait until you class up.

00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:09.642
So that was about again Don't quote me on exact time frames and dates, but this is the general feel for it.

00:19:09.642 --> 00:19:24.074
You wait to your class up, then you class up and be part of this group of a hundred guys and and then and you get ready through physical training on To be part of that class.

00:19:24.414 --> 00:19:26.340
Once you get part of that class, you go through three phases.

00:19:26.340 --> 00:19:31.490
There is the first phase, which gets you ready for hell week.

00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:49.301
Where in hell week you are, you're tested to your limits and part of that testing is staying up for four nights in hell week and Then after that, after you get through hell week, you go through.

00:19:49.301 --> 00:20:01.970
Let's see, there's a land warfare phase and there's also a diving phase, and For the land warfare phase they take you out to a place called San Clemente Island.

00:20:01.970 --> 00:20:12.208
You do small arms training and also demolitions, underwater demolitions, and then for diving you get qualified.

00:20:12.208 --> 00:20:26.240
You start with open circuit and then you transition over into a closed circuit, which was that difference between scuba and no bubbles bubbles versus no bubbles so you can become a tactical combat Diver.

00:20:26.560 --> 00:20:26.782
All right.

00:20:26.782 --> 00:20:33.284
So just, but just so that we can explain to folks when we keep sick We've mentioned the word a couple of times bud school, what that really?

00:20:33.284 --> 00:20:35.309
But what that really means is basic underwater demolition, seal training.

00:20:35.309 --> 00:20:36.763
So that's where it buds comes from.

00:20:36.763 --> 00:20:42.809
So, okay, so now you've done, you've done, let's say that's why, that's what six weeks you said.

00:20:44.695 --> 00:20:49.089
So the the total time for buds is is approximately eight months.

00:20:49.089 --> 00:20:49.250
Oh wow.

00:20:51.095 --> 00:20:52.157
Okay, wow, geez, all right, so.

00:20:52.157 --> 00:20:56.230
So that's eight months of just what seems to be intensive training at this point.

00:20:58.435 --> 00:20:59.720
It is, but you get.

00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:09.141
So for me, the mindset was is If I don't make it through here, they're gonna have to take me out in a body bag, and the sounds kind of extreme right there.

00:21:09.141 --> 00:21:16.663
But you kind of kind of have that mentality when you go in because otherwise you're gonna wring out, and that's not that.

00:21:16.702 --> 00:21:23.049
That leads me right to my next question All right, so I think a lot of us have seen kind of movies about seals and seal training.

00:21:23.049 --> 00:21:26.343
Is that true?

00:21:26.343 --> 00:21:27.950
The idea of the bell to ring out?

00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:31.289
Yes, that's absolutely true, absolutely true.

00:21:31.289 --> 00:21:43.780
And I'm assuming that you have seen other guy, other other candidates in there who you would say are probably just as superhuman as you or you know you would.

00:21:43.780 --> 00:21:48.577
You would think, and they ring out and you and you're probably your joy drops, I'm assuming.

00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.368
Yeah yeah, and not superhuman, obviously it's.

00:21:52.388 --> 00:22:00.390
It's it's Persistence and it's over overcoming adversity as you look back and and you compare yourself to the others.

00:22:00.390 --> 00:22:09.367
Was there something Different about you in eight Lee that you think helped get you through this process?

00:22:09.387 --> 00:22:23.878
Yeah, if I'm being honest with you, it's that I'm not great at anything, but I'm really good at a lot of things, and so when, when you are in the top 20% of a lot of things, then you gravitate overall to being good.

00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:34.432
I you just made my my hair stand on end with that kind of stuff, man, because what you're doing, I mean there must have been, and Help me, help me understand it.

00:22:34.432 --> 00:22:38.246
There must have been days where you're like I can't do this anymore.

00:22:38.246 --> 00:22:42.845
So how did you push through?

00:22:42.845 --> 00:22:43.847
What was that mental struggle like?

00:22:43.847 --> 00:22:46.134
Or were you always just Going to go into the end?

00:22:46.134 --> 00:22:46.496
That was it.

00:22:46.496 --> 00:22:49.065
I mean you said bring you out in a body bag.

00:22:49.065 --> 00:22:54.818
There's things called drownproofing, somebody is trying to drown you, you know, and you have to like, not drown.

00:22:54.818 --> 00:22:57.049
Basically, you've won if you don't drown.

00:22:57.049 --> 00:22:58.694
What was the mental part?

00:22:58.694 --> 00:23:02.029
And I know it could be very sensitive and I'm not trying to make light of it.

00:23:02.029 --> 00:23:04.619
So, please, like, help us understand, because it's a special person that I'm not trying to make light of it.

00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:09.079
Understand, because it's a special person that goes through this.

00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:17.814
It's funny that you bring that up, because I failed the first drownproofing so I had to go through a second time, and so the first.

00:23:17.814 --> 00:23:18.737
What do they do they?

00:23:18.737 --> 00:23:22.750
They have you in a pool and they have you in open, in open circuit.

00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:27.601
Uh, so scuba, and they take they your mask.

00:23:27.601 --> 00:23:46.795
They take your mask off, they take what is an octopus rig which is connected on both sides of the tank, and they bring it over your head and they tie it in a knot and then they toss you around a little bit and then you've got to untie the knot and bring it back over the top of your head and start breathing again, and I couldn't get the knot out.

00:23:46.795 --> 00:23:52.644
I had gotten to my limit the first time and so so you had to under water when that happened.

00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:57.055
Obviously right, yeah, you've got to be comfortable in the water, oh my God.

00:23:59.273 --> 00:24:03.733
And so the second time I trained and trained and trained and there was.

00:24:03.733 --> 00:24:15.298
For me it was kind of a strange part in aspect of my life because there was just no way that I was not going to not make it.

00:24:15.298 --> 00:24:22.601
I didn't want to live with myself if I didn't make it, and that's for those folks that don't make it through.

00:24:22.601 --> 00:24:24.414
It's not a reflection on that person either.

00:24:24.414 --> 00:24:25.900
I don't want to make that quick.

00:24:26.029 --> 00:24:26.673
So when do you know?

00:24:26.673 --> 00:24:31.998
You made it Like what is that moment, what is that last step where you know?

00:24:32.078 --> 00:24:32.640
you've made it.

00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:38.660
I mean when you're walking across the stage and you get your orders to your next command.

00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:56.098
But is there a moment where you're walking out of a drill, out of a test, out of a water, where you've just kind of left it all on the field and you recognize that you've crossed the finish line, where it's really not until your score comes in and you get your certification.

00:24:56.329 --> 00:24:58.865
So you get all these scores as you're going along.

00:24:58.865 --> 00:25:03.650
So you know how you're doing, but you never know when you're going to get injured.

00:25:03.650 --> 00:25:09.748
You never know when you're going to get a fracture, a shin splints, to the point where you can't run anymore.

00:25:09.748 --> 00:25:12.230
So it's always a process.

00:25:12.230 --> 00:25:14.329
You don't want to take anything for granted.

00:25:15.137 --> 00:25:16.329
And then what are the emotions afterwards?

00:25:16.329 --> 00:25:25.329
I think about all those people who were messing with you throughout the process and making it hard, etc.

00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:30.329
I mean, you recognize why you're doing it, but are there any hard feelings afterwards?

00:25:30.329 --> 00:25:32.269
Do you leave that behind?

00:25:32.269 --> 00:25:34.839
What are the emotions after you've finished?

00:25:35.329 --> 00:25:43.056
So you don't have any animosity towards your instructors I didn't.

00:25:43.056 --> 00:25:59.329
They were terrific and they're just trying to teach you the lessons that you need to learn when you get into serious circumstances and how do you be a leader, and so, in a sense, that's what I was kind of looking for.

00:25:59.329 --> 00:26:04.701
It was the first step along that path, and so they were tremendous.

00:26:04.701 --> 00:26:08.317
Of course, I was proud.

00:26:08.317 --> 00:26:11.329
I was proud of myself, and that doesn't go away.

00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:13.329
I still look back on that right now as we're talking.

00:26:13.329 --> 00:26:18.309
I'm extremely proud of my performance during that time frame, as well as you should be.

00:26:18.431 --> 00:26:22.623
You talked about injury before and guys that get injured and you said about 20 rejoined your group.

00:26:22.623 --> 00:26:27.329
How does the injury thing work, because it's such a big part of this.

00:26:27.329 --> 00:26:31.615
Can you step away, rehab the injury, jump back in right where you were?

00:26:31.615 --> 00:26:32.616
Is there a waiting list?

00:26:32.616 --> 00:26:33.538
How does that end?

00:26:33.538 --> 00:26:35.163
You just get a year and then that's it.

00:26:35.163 --> 00:26:35.624
You're done.

00:26:37.037 --> 00:26:38.229
So you know this is back in the day.

00:26:38.229 --> 00:26:40.674
This is 30 years ago.

00:26:41.115 --> 00:26:42.720
So I don't know, it may be different today, sure.

00:26:43.060 --> 00:26:52.136
Yeah, exactly, but back in the day what happened is, if you've made it through Hell Week, then you could class up and you got injured.

00:26:52.136 --> 00:26:54.176
You could then pick up another class.

00:26:54.176 --> 00:27:00.477
If you didn't make it through Hell Week or you got injured before Hell Week, then you would have to go through that first phase all over again.

00:27:00.477 --> 00:27:11.778
Right, and so those three phases the initial phase, the diving phase and land warfare is that you would then class up at one of those.

00:27:11.778 --> 00:27:12.700
Does that make sense?

00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:13.240
Yeah.

00:27:13.361 --> 00:27:13.520
Yep.

00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:14.082
Sure yeah.

00:27:14.082 --> 00:27:18.336
So what was your first assignment coming out of?

00:27:18.336 --> 00:27:19.471
Coming out of Bud's, yeah?

00:27:19.491 --> 00:27:20.743
1989.

00:27:20.743 --> 00:27:43.800
And I got assigned to SEAL Team 4, which was my first choice, and that is they had an area of operations of the Southern Command which, if you guys remember, was when the invasion of Panama happened, and with Noriega Yep, then Panamanian general Noriega, and so I thought that was the best place to go at that point in time.

00:27:44.973 --> 00:27:47.169
So, okay, we're entering the tricky part of the interview.

00:27:49.315 --> 00:27:50.818
Let's talk about it for a second.

00:27:50.818 --> 00:27:51.359
Yeah.

00:27:52.329 --> 00:27:58.146
You were a SEAL, for you helped me with the number of 10, 11 years, yeah, 12 years, 12 years.

00:27:58.146 --> 00:27:59.329
I'm sure there are things you could talk about.

00:27:59.329 --> 00:28:01.477
I'm sure there are things that you can't talk about.

00:28:01.477 --> 00:28:04.298
We certainly are not going to know the difference.

00:28:04.298 --> 00:28:09.309
So we want to go as far as we can without you breaking protocol.

00:28:09.309 --> 00:28:13.604
So what were some of those missions that you're super proud of?

00:28:13.604 --> 00:28:17.655
If you could talk about them or be vague, but what did you do in that?

00:28:17.695 --> 00:28:17.915
time.

00:28:17.915 --> 00:28:18.617
What's an example?

00:28:18.637 --> 00:28:22.718
Yeah, 12 years Tell us a little bit about that.

00:28:23.811 --> 00:28:25.156
I'll give you three snapshots.

00:28:25.156 --> 00:28:33.721
The first one is the time that I spent down in South America, and so there I was as an officer.

00:28:33.721 --> 00:28:44.182
I was assistant officer in charge and then also eventually an officer in charge of a platoon, and that means of 16 guys that deployed together.

00:28:45.032 --> 00:28:45.555
What was your rank.

00:28:46.611 --> 00:28:47.957
My highest rank was a commander.

00:28:47.957 --> 00:28:56.641
I attained that after I left the SEALs as a reservist, as an active duty SEAL, my highest rank was a lieutenant commander, which is an 04.

00:28:56.641 --> 00:29:11.663
So for the first five years I was deploying down to South America to places like Columbia and Honduras and stationed in Panama right on the Panama Canal, which was amazing.

00:29:11.663 --> 00:29:38.019
And then doing counter narcotics training with partner nations like Columbia and going into those areas, remote areas like the Putamayo River down in Columbia, which is between the border of Columbia and Ecuador, and seeing that beauty and seeing how the countries worked, being able to get fluent in Spanish was a really terrific time.

00:29:38.631 --> 00:29:43.862
The next phase that I'll mention is 97 through 99.

00:29:43.862 --> 00:29:48.861
And there I got qualified as a SEAL delivery vehicle pilot.

00:29:48.861 --> 00:30:07.959
So I don't know if you guys are familiar with, but the SEAL delivery vehicle is a wet submarine and it comes out of the back of a what's known as a dry dock shelter on the top of a submarine and you go and do naval special warfare missions from there.

00:30:07.959 --> 00:30:09.863
Interesting so, oh boy.

00:30:09.863 --> 00:30:16.083
So being a pilot and doing things like just looking at the dry dock shelter out the back and seeing.

00:30:16.083 --> 00:30:36.882
You know, we used to do training in a place called Vieques in Puerto Rico and looking out the back of the proverbial submarine garage and seeing the bioluminescence coming off of the back of the submarine propeller with a hundred foot visibility was just absolutely amazing, wow.

00:30:37.830 --> 00:30:38.070
Oh my.

00:30:38.172 --> 00:30:38.471
God.

00:30:39.394 --> 00:30:40.355
Okay, that's two.

00:30:40.355 --> 00:30:41.037
You have a third.

00:30:41.679 --> 00:30:42.881
Yeah, persian Gulf.

00:30:42.881 --> 00:31:12.797
There I was the task unit commander, so in charge of about 21 or 22 guys on an aircraft carrier and that was the USS Roosevelt and we went over to Bosnia through the Mediterranean and then through into the Gulf Persian Gulf where we were doing, you know, operations there, and that was extremely rewarding as well.

00:31:13.618 --> 00:31:15.532
Yeah, I'm sure I mean all of these things.

00:31:15.532 --> 00:31:18.101
It sounds like I mean you are a pilot.

00:31:18.101 --> 00:31:23.329
I mean you're doing various functions in those three snapshots too, which is what I find most fascinating.

00:31:23.329 --> 00:31:25.758
So what kinds of things?

00:31:25.758 --> 00:31:29.329
Don't even talk about mission exactly, but what kinds of things did they have you doing?

00:31:29.329 --> 00:31:32.329
Were you going behind enemy lines?

00:31:32.329 --> 00:31:34.317
Of course you're driving vehicles.

00:31:34.317 --> 00:31:41.941
You're in a sub vehicle with the sub single man, like, are you like going in and like going under and jumping on land?

00:31:42.221 --> 00:31:45.329
essentially, yeah, let me give you an example.

00:31:45.329 --> 00:32:03.791
One of the things in the Persian Gulf that we used to do is something called visit, board search and seizure, and what we would do is take over a ship, a cargo ship, and the way that we would do that is, at night, by fast roping from helicopters onto the back of the moving cargo ship.

00:32:04.534 --> 00:32:05.115
Oh, my God.

00:32:05.724 --> 00:32:07.652
That's like we would have weapons.

00:32:07.652 --> 00:32:08.173
We would have.

00:32:09.547 --> 00:32:12.292
I was going to avoid saying that's like the movies, but that's like the movies.

00:32:13.695 --> 00:32:14.436
It was crazy.

00:32:14.436 --> 00:32:15.969
Yeah that's crazy Fun simultaneous.

00:32:16.885 --> 00:32:20.756
Yeah, I'll bet and you have to at some point.

00:32:20.756 --> 00:32:24.146
I mean, I Kate Harpen on this point, but I'm going to do it again At some point.

00:32:24.146 --> 00:32:28.868
You're like staring into the abyss on the back of some vehicle about to jump into God knows where.

00:32:28.868 --> 00:32:31.836
You must have said am I making good life choices right now?

00:32:35.126 --> 00:32:40.393
Actually, that really is a really good question because, like you, have to be a little bit crazy to do this job.

00:32:41.045 --> 00:32:41.667
I don't think so.

00:32:41.667 --> 00:32:51.416
I think more than anything when I hear you guys say that is the the, the thing that that I think about is you know, Lord, just let me get it right.

00:32:51.416 --> 00:32:53.069
I mean, that's yeah, there you go.

00:32:55.345 --> 00:33:05.707
So you know, tushar asked a very good setup question for for where my, my, my mind was going, which is you know what is the lifestyle of a Navy SEAL Meaning?

00:33:05.707 --> 00:33:14.317
You're going off on these missions, you're living in different parts of the world, you're giving all of yourself to your country and to a cause.

00:33:14.317 --> 00:33:20.664
Can you have a normal life, like how much notice do you have before a mission?

00:33:20.664 --> 00:33:21.951
How long are missions?

00:33:21.951 --> 00:33:23.865
Can you date as a Navy SEAL?

00:33:23.865 --> 00:33:26.113
Like, what is the lifestyle of a SEAL?

00:33:26.384 --> 00:33:28.851
So what tends to happen is is you get assigned to.

00:33:28.851 --> 00:33:31.116
This is again old information.

00:33:31.116 --> 00:34:05.538
Okay, it's not organized the way it is now, but from my standpoint, my historical basis is that you would get assigned to a platoon and that platoon would have somewhere like an 18 month workup where you would do all this training in submarine operations, in air operations like halo, high altitude, low opening land warfare, all these different components in order to qualify the platoon to be able to be, to deploy and be a capable unit.

00:34:05.538 --> 00:34:18.788
Then you would deploy for six months and then you'd come back and you'd stand down for a while and then you'd repeat that process, especially for enlisted and for officers.

00:34:18.788 --> 00:34:33.217
You typically stay at a command for, you know, two to three years and then you move to a different command to try and check off a lot of your responsibilities as you matriculate and become a more senior officer.

00:34:33.565 --> 00:34:39.311
So do you still consider yourself at this point now, retired so many years, still a member of the special operators community?

00:34:39.311 --> 00:34:41.204
Like, are you still very welcomed in?

00:34:41.204 --> 00:34:42.965
And I mean, obviously, look, you're teaching it.

00:34:42.965 --> 00:34:58.931
We were teaching at the War College in California, but you're and I wouldn't say buts, it's wrong for me to use the word, but in this case because you are still obviously teaching in the Submariner community but in this sense, like, do you still consider yourself part of that special operators community as well?

00:34:59.271 --> 00:35:07.164
Absolutely, but I don't make you know I'm not in contact with everybody as maybe I could be.

00:35:07.164 --> 00:35:09.885
There's a little bit of separation that has happened over the years.

00:35:09.885 --> 00:35:19.193
You don't, you know, hang out with as many of your buds as you want to, so there is a little bit of a separation.

00:35:20.237 --> 00:35:20.659
Why is that?

00:35:23.431 --> 00:35:26.583
The responsibilities associated with, you know, having a family, raising the family.

00:35:26.583 --> 00:35:28.762
Sure, your priorities change a little bit.

00:35:30.391 --> 00:35:39.164
So to that point, doug, when you talk about priorities changing, how do you know it's time to pivot away from being active and to pivot towards something else?

00:35:39.164 --> 00:35:42.820
Does that moment reveal itself to you?

00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:43.644
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:45.635 --> 00:36:10.644
So let's see, in 1995, after five years at SEAL Team 4, I came to the Naval Post Graduate School in Monterey and met my wife then, julie Franson, and spent two great years here and then we left and we always thought that we kind of wanted to come back here and maybe raise a family.

00:36:10.644 --> 00:36:30.121
And so then fast forward to 1999 and after the Persian Gulf, with the Task Unit Commander is, I did a job in Washington DC at Naval Sea Systems Command and knew at that point in time that we just wanted to transition back.

00:36:30.121 --> 00:36:38.835
It was too hard on us in our particular relationship to spend the kind of time apart that we knew we would if I continued to be a SEAL.

00:36:41.351 --> 00:36:43.621
So were you married as a SEAL?

00:36:43.621 --> 00:36:46.724
Yes, and what was that like for her?

00:36:46.724 --> 00:36:50.141
Meaning you're going off on a mission.

00:36:50.141 --> 00:36:53.715
Are you going to come back Like what was that like for her?

00:36:54.416 --> 00:36:54.938
It was tough.

00:36:54.938 --> 00:36:56.543
It was tough, it was tough.

00:36:56.543 --> 00:36:59.434
You'd have to talk to her about that, but it's.

00:36:59.434 --> 00:37:06.494
You know, the not knowing and not being able to discuss stuff was always difficult.

00:37:07.155 --> 00:37:08.298
How old were you at that point?

00:37:09.547 --> 00:37:17.724
Let's see in 32, which, when I got married, so I have to think this is an issue with a lot of your colleagues too.

00:37:17.724 --> 00:37:21.704
I mean, everybody you know, I would think, goes through this in one form or another.

00:37:21.704 --> 00:37:24.635
We all have relationships in our life, whatever they might be.

00:37:24.635 --> 00:37:34.503
How you know, how long did it take, for instance, your wife to, like you know, get into that because you signed up to be a SEAL.

00:37:34.503 --> 00:37:38.724
She didn't, so at a certain point she's signing up to be a SEAL's wife, right?

00:37:38.724 --> 00:37:40.724
So was that a long transition for her?

00:37:41.568 --> 00:37:47.532
I'm not sure it was ever a transition or she entirely accepted that right, because you know I can give you a story.

00:37:47.532 --> 00:37:54.311
As with the SEAL delivery vehicle is that I got stung in.

00:37:54.311 --> 00:38:03.996
The short story is that I came out of the back of the submarine and came up to the surface and while I was coming up to the surface I got stung by a sea wasp and I went into anaphylactic shock.

00:38:04.938 --> 00:38:05.398
Oh, my God.

00:38:06.085 --> 00:38:18.724
And she didn't find out about it until a couple of days later when I was in the hospital, and so you know that happens, yeah, and it's not easy to deal with, right?

00:38:19.407 --> 00:38:23.724
So, doug, when you decided that it was time, what was your thought process?

00:38:23.724 --> 00:38:26.704
What did you think could be next for you?

00:38:26.865 --> 00:38:28.657
Well, I didn't know at all.

00:38:30.365 --> 00:39:24.724
I just when I started getting interested in was robotics, because my last job in the Navy was at the again the Naval Sea Systems Command, and I was in charge of a program that was introducing the first autonomous underwater vehicle into the Navy and I really enjoyed it because it got me smarter on aspects that I knew about under sea with respect to the SEAL delivery vehicle, like why was it navigating, what does an autopilot mean, what's the position estimation as a function of distance, those kinds of fundamental questions I got better understanding to and it just got more fascinated about and kind of realized that the future for unmanned systems was right there, that it was going to be something that I could enjoy over a 20 or 30 year period.

00:39:25.887 --> 00:39:31.724
So we left the Navy and we had one thing in mind and that was return to Monterey.

00:39:31.724 --> 00:39:33.492
I didn't know what I was going to do.

00:39:33.492 --> 00:39:38.724
My wife is a speech therapist so she knew what she was going to do, but I didn't know what I was going to do.

00:39:38.724 --> 00:39:44.717
So I came back without a job and found my way to the postgraduate school and have stayed there ever since.

00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:46.784
So how did that happen?

00:39:46.784 --> 00:39:48.809
How did you find your way back to post-graduate school?

00:39:48.809 --> 00:39:52.365
At that point, Was it just like, essentially like who did you speak to?

00:39:52.365 --> 00:39:54.931
You say you know what, I'm looking, I'm trying to find something.

00:39:54.931 --> 00:39:56.684
This is what I'm interested in now.

00:39:56.684 --> 00:39:57.889
What should I?

00:39:57.929 --> 00:39:58.068
do.

00:39:58.068 --> 00:40:03.961
Yeah, there was a professor, a guy by the name of Don Bretsman, that took me under his wing, and there's also.

00:40:03.961 --> 00:40:15.070
I worked for a company that was working for MPS and they saw my work and then they pulled me into the school and then I started working for what was my one of my strong mentors over the years.

00:40:15.070 --> 00:40:26.813
I got by the name of Tony Healy, who was the chairman for the mechanical engineering department, and I've kind of stayed in that department ever since and he got me even more interested in on robotics.

00:40:27.099 --> 00:40:37.505
So you mentioned something a moment ago about you know your understanding of being a pilot yourself and how these crafts moved through the water etc.

00:40:37.505 --> 00:40:39.007
Got you into robotics etc.

00:40:39.007 --> 00:40:40.030
Did you?

00:40:40.030 --> 00:40:43.543
At that point you said you knew this would take you through like the next 10, 20 years.

00:40:43.543 --> 00:40:46.811
So you're thinking that far down the road as you're making this decision.

00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:53.072
I kind of was it's kind of interesting that you bring that out, because I kind of looked at it from an investment standpoint.

00:40:53.072 --> 00:40:56.224
It's like what's my return going to be for personal satisfaction?

00:40:56.224 --> 00:41:01.014
Not monetary return, but personal satisfaction over a long history.

00:41:01.014 --> 00:41:06.952
Yeah, I kind of took a look at that and I was like, wow, there's a lot of stuff that I could really get into right here.

00:41:06.952 --> 00:41:11.891
It just kind of made sense to me and who I was at that stage of my life.

00:41:12.621 --> 00:41:13.181
Yeah, that's.

00:41:13.181 --> 00:41:21.304
That was a moment of insight for you that really blossomed your career into an entirely different second half, which is that blows my mind, you know.

00:41:21.304 --> 00:41:22.666
So kudos to you.

00:41:22.666 --> 00:41:23.768
So what's your first step?

00:41:23.768 --> 00:41:24.911
You start teaching.

00:41:24.911 --> 00:41:26.574
Did you enjoy teaching at that point?

00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:28.121
No, it was all about research.

00:41:28.121 --> 00:41:44.507
So for the next five years or so I just did research programs where we would try and instill autonomy as computer algorithms on board the vehicle to try and give it more capability than it had.

00:41:44.507 --> 00:41:48.393
So to try and give it more, so quote unquote independence.

00:41:48.393 --> 00:42:12.862
So one example of that would be obstacle avoidance, that the underwater vehicle by itself didn't have the ability to recognize and avoid objects forward of its position, just like the seal delivery vehicle doesn't, and so what we did was do the computer processing on board using forward looking sonar that would recognize objects and go around them, which sounds pretty rudimentary, right.

00:42:12.862 --> 00:42:25.152
But to institute that as a system you combine together sensor information with position estimation, with path planning and with mapping, and you've got to bring all those things together to get them to work properly, properly together.

00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:30.429
I mean it sounds like a way to build an unmanned Navy under this.

00:42:30.429 --> 00:42:33.052
I mean that sounds like the direction that you're heading it.

00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:40.271
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of effort right now into developing unmanned systems.

00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:43.829
You know I always make fun of people and say you know, it's not rocket science.

00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:45.764
This sounds like rocket science.

00:42:45.764 --> 00:42:46.826
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:47.887 --> 00:42:48.349
I don't think so.

00:42:48.349 --> 00:42:50.172
It's pretty straightforward.

00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:53.385
But well there, it is right there, so that it comes easy for you.

00:42:53.385 --> 00:42:53.864
Was that?

00:42:53.864 --> 00:43:07.009
Part of it is that you were seeing rewards, you were seeing projects you know fulfilled and you were being fulfilled because of that and that fueled you more like how then do you have the next two decades of your career in robotics where you're a giant?

00:43:07.009 --> 00:43:10.800
I mean, what you've done with underwater robotics, from what I've read, is astounding.

00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:14.010
So how does this, how does this matriculate from from this point?

00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:34.980
So the first of all, it's recognizing an opportunity, when one exists that feeds to what you think might be your strengths, not now, but in the future and then it's then it's knowing who you are and the places that are going to keep you interested.

00:43:34.980 --> 00:43:47.652
So, for me, the things that keep me interested is the ability to find my own future, and so, within research, I put out proposals, but I get to choose what I want to do.

00:43:47.652 --> 00:43:55.853
So one of the things that is important to me is to travel to interesting places with good people.

00:43:55.853 --> 00:44:00.028
So one of those things was known, as it's called Nemo.

00:44:00.028 --> 00:44:07.442
Your listeners can look it up, but it's NASA Extreme Environments Mission Objectives and what it is is.

00:44:07.722 --> 00:44:13.773
We got together with NASA astronauts that go into a facility known.

00:44:13.773 --> 00:44:35.072
It's off the Key Largo and it's Aquarius is what it's called underwater habitat and so they go into this underwater tube and live there for a week, and what they're thinking about is being in space and doing missions in space and maybe even in Mars.

00:44:35.072 --> 00:44:42.833
So the question becomes is how do these aquanauts, which they call themselves, interact with robots on Mars?

00:44:42.833 --> 00:44:44.867
And so we took our vehicles there.

00:44:44.867 --> 00:44:57.235
We had torpedo-shaped vehicle and also a box-shaped vehicle that was much more able to work closely.

00:44:57.235 --> 00:45:01.550
The torpedo-shaped vehicle turned out to be the search vehicle.

00:45:01.550 --> 00:45:26.208
It would do a survey of the larger area and then come back with the information about recommendations as to where to go, and then the aquanauts would go out on their air systems and go with the other underwater vehicle and they would then grab samples and that robot would help them get those samples.

00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:29.228
You know, normally we tell people hey, how do you get a job like this?

00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:32.188
I don't want other people to get a job like this.

00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.463
I want you to have a job like this because you're the only person Like this.

00:45:37.463 --> 00:45:39.668
Blows my mind to have a conversation like this.

00:45:41.306 --> 00:45:43.298
So I got to give you one more story.

00:45:43.298 --> 00:45:45.202
Can I give you one more, please, please?

00:45:45.202 --> 00:46:08.072
We got a chance to go, so the Navy, once every two years, has an exercise on the Arctic ice it's known as icex and so we took our underwater vehicles actually our aerial vehicles as well took a team up there and we deployed the vehicles under ice with submarines that show up.

00:46:08.072 --> 00:46:30.472
And the way that the submarines show up is that they find the location they come from, like Groton, connecticut, come all the way up within 800 miles of the North Pole, and they come surfacing up and their mast breaks the ice right next to our ice camp.

00:46:30.472 --> 00:46:41.384
So we were there for three weeks I think it was just doing ice operations with underwater vehicles in minus 20 degree temperatures, and it was just awesome.

00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:43.182
Sounds incredible.

00:46:44.807 --> 00:46:45.650
It sounds difficult.

00:46:45.860 --> 00:46:47.405
It sounds like you're seal trading game it yet.

00:46:49.960 --> 00:47:04.369
And so there's a piece on 60 Minutes called Arctic Frontiers with Leslie Stahl, who was amazing what a national icon and she was just amazing, so she interviewed us.

00:47:04.369 --> 00:47:05.090
I'm curious.

00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:09.030
So all three of us watched the segment at 60 Minutes preparing for this.

00:47:09.030 --> 00:47:09.570
Oh, did you?

00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:14.512
And the way she positioned it was as if she lived there for a week.

00:47:14.512 --> 00:47:15.585
Was she actually there?

00:47:15.585 --> 00:47:17.746
Was she flying to the Hilton somewhere nearby?

00:47:17.746 --> 00:47:19.985
No, she was there.

00:47:20.139 --> 00:47:20.460
Wow.

00:47:21.585 --> 00:47:22.047
That's great.

00:47:22.539 --> 00:47:27.103
And I'd have breakfast with her and she'd be talking about her grandkids and I'm like oh my goodness.

00:47:27.103 --> 00:47:33.407
I'm on the North Pole talking with Leslie Stahl and we're having a great, great conversation over breakfast.

00:47:33.527 --> 00:47:33.927
That's great.

00:47:33.927 --> 00:47:35.884
It doesn't get any better than that when what was she?

00:47:35.884 --> 00:47:37.161
Living in A tent.

00:47:38.947 --> 00:47:40.581
Yeah, wow so.

00:47:40.581 --> 00:47:44.449
I'm telling you right now Leslie Stahl was saying to herself I'm talking to Doug.

00:47:44.570 --> 00:47:45.460
Horner Right.

00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:47.523
It's unbelievable.

00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:49.847
I'll tell my grandkids this later on.

00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:52.222
Seriously, seriously.

00:47:52.724 --> 00:47:53.568
Doug, I got to ask.

00:47:53.568 --> 00:48:00.373
So I mean, look, it's hard to kind of transition then from saying obviously you love the research, You're a researcher.

00:48:00.373 --> 00:48:01.242
We can hear that.

00:48:01.242 --> 00:48:11.706
So what is that transition then, like, do you prefer being a researcher or do you now enjoy the idea of being a teacher and being more of a class teacher at this point?

00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:19.494
What I really enjoy is teaching students that have a background within the Navy.

00:48:19.494 --> 00:48:31.427
Like, a lot of times we get these Navy lieutenants that have maybe five to seven years in, so they have good ideas on what they want to improve, and then they come to you and say, why don't we do this this way?

00:48:31.427 --> 00:48:35.541
And I'm like, yeah, that's a great idea, let's do it.

00:48:35.541 --> 00:48:54.585
And so we come up with a research program and I've got one student right now that is an oceanographer and he's got experience with underwater vehicles and he wants to understand sediment transport and we're going to use the underwater vehicles to understand sediment transport near the interface between rivers and oceans.

00:48:55.219 --> 00:49:03.949
Let me ask you, let me actually that's a really good kind of question, a great question to kind of ask there the notion of generational change there, right?

00:49:03.949 --> 00:49:14.670
So we talk a lot about here and joke a bit about how, like you know, kids today maybe don't understand what it was like for us growing up without cell phones, without computers, etc.

00:49:14.670 --> 00:49:28.442
Now, how do you see, how do you, let's say, incorporate the ideas of some of the kids that you meet now, the younger, these younger officers that you meet now, and incorporate that into the work that you bring, that you're doing, and do they?

00:49:28.442 --> 00:49:32.150
Is there a good synergy between, let's say, new and old, so to speak?

00:49:33.721 --> 00:49:40.172
Yeah, I think that the students that I interact with are amazing.

00:49:40.172 --> 00:49:45.952
They are smarter, they have a great head on their shoulders.

00:49:45.952 --> 00:50:12.286
I'm constantly impressed by the comparison between where I was at the Asian, where they are, and so you know, being the chair of the USW academic group is that I want to make sure that they have a good experience, because I see the level of effort that, by and large, they're putting forward and how much they care.

00:50:13.347 --> 00:50:13.668
That's great.

00:50:13.668 --> 00:50:19.389
I mean, we need smart people, right, we need smart people to lead us to new things and go further.

00:50:19.389 --> 00:50:28.128
You keep talking about an aspect of what you do now that I really want to just know a little bit more about, and that's like the research proposal.

00:50:28.128 --> 00:50:36.610
Like, I'm listening to you, you're clearly, like probably the smartest person I've ever talked to, and it's incredibly successful.

00:50:36.610 --> 00:50:38.746
So how do you get paid?

00:50:38.746 --> 00:50:40.445
Is this a government contract?

00:50:40.445 --> 00:50:41.389
Is the government paid?

00:50:41.389 --> 00:50:49.083
You put out a research proposal, somebody decides yay or nay, but if they say yes, they do the funding.

00:50:49.083 --> 00:50:50.226
How does it work?

00:50:50.226 --> 00:50:52.463
How do you make a living doing this?

00:50:52.463 --> 00:50:53.487
I guess, is my question.

00:50:53.487 --> 00:51:00.646
You're going to all places and all over the world doing amazing things and, as you said, you decide what you want to research.

00:51:00.646 --> 00:51:02.025
So yeah, like, how does that?

00:51:02.065 --> 00:51:02.264
work?

00:51:02.264 --> 00:51:03.603
It's a great question.

00:51:03.603 --> 00:52:08.126
So, first of all, I am a department of the Navy civilian employee for the Naval Postgraduate School, so I get a portion of my salary that comes from the USW academic group, but the majority of my salary comes from research initiatives, and those research initiatives are obtained through proposals that I write on a yearly basis to organizations like the Office of Naval Research and DARPA and some other various organizations, but those two are the dominant ones and you have a sense as to because you're attending robotics conferences, because you're attending the conferences that are associated with the development of capabilities within the Navy, and that you have all these operational folks that you're engaging with at the school, you have a notion as to what is needed to go forward for unmanned systems and especially autonomy on unmanned systems.

00:52:08.126 --> 00:52:11.744
So that's kind of the process in a nutshell.

00:52:12.728 --> 00:52:13.931
Yeah, all right.

00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:21.385
Oddly enough, before we were talking to you we were talking about hey, how much interaction do you have with DARPA?

00:52:21.385 --> 00:52:24.809
So it seems like a great deal, to be honest with you.

00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:36.532
But I want to ask you a question about this notion of the future, and obviously you talked a great deal about seeing this career for you as 20, 30 years out.

00:52:36.532 --> 00:52:41.851
Has this changed your viewpoint on the future of war and warfare?

00:52:45.139 --> 00:52:55.681
Yes, if I was in a policy position which I'm not, is that my threshold to enter war as I've gotten older is higher I would.

00:52:55.681 --> 00:53:09.686
I just wanna make sure that we avoided at all costs and that wasn't necessarily my view at twenty seven or twenty eight years old, I know I wasn't really my position or place.

00:53:09.686 --> 00:53:25.155
If I thought like that, I wouldn't what have been dangerous for me and the people that I work with, I think, and so that mentality has shifted over time because of the damage that would be done had if you entered war.

00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:41.454
Yeah, yeah, I mean you look at the concern with with china right now, and it's a peer versus peer potential conflict that would reek a significant damage all around.

00:53:41.454 --> 00:53:44.197
That's a heavy price to pay, with no victor.

00:53:45.882 --> 00:53:55.195
So you know, doggie, that this brings up a similar question for me when it pertains as it pertains to the climate and our planet.

00:53:55.195 --> 00:54:05.054
You've been in a very unique position to be underwater, to be so deeply immersed in nature, to be in the arctic, to have seen all these different things.

00:54:05.054 --> 00:54:09.786
What type of change have you seen over the past thirty years?

00:54:09.786 --> 00:54:16.655
And when it comes to a tipping point, you know from your vantage point, you know where are we from a climate perspective?

00:54:17.034 --> 00:54:21.125
so I'm no subject matter expert in that domain.

00:54:21.125 --> 00:54:29.465
All would be anecdotal based upon, you know, what we've all witnessed, and it is from a generational standpoint.

00:54:29.465 --> 00:54:36.235
It is very worrisome that we're leaving this to our children and our children's children.

00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:42.565
So, doug, last question you know, as we, we look forward.

00:54:42.565 --> 00:54:52.096
If there's one more huge thing that you want to achieve or accomplish before you one day retire, what would that be?

00:54:52.661 --> 00:54:54.264
I want to excel at retirement.

00:54:54.264 --> 00:55:06.505
I wanna you know when the times right, I wanna go out and and Do some traveling with my wife and enjoy that to its fullest.

00:55:06.505 --> 00:55:21.514
So I want to be of an age where I've got the mobility and the Inquisitive about different cultures and learn different things and maybe pick up an instrument.

00:55:23.181 --> 00:55:24.804
Oh yeah, and with that you know.

00:55:24.804 --> 00:55:43.146
It's right advice for young person, somebody coming into you know the the work world today, if they're inspired to be a seal, if they're inspired to be in robotics, what advice do you have for young people in today's environment?

00:55:43.568 --> 00:55:47.534
guess the first thing I'd say it's not about the money, at least for me, never was.

00:55:47.534 --> 00:55:57.905
Then the next is is to find people that you generally enjoy working around, if you can get those two right.

00:55:57.905 --> 00:56:08.485
And the third one would be is to find a process or a field that allows you to be engaged, that interests you.

00:56:09.025 --> 00:56:19.356
those, those are the three really core things well, it certainly sounds like you've achieved all of those things and, doug, this has been a remarkable conversation.

00:56:19.356 --> 00:56:22.862
Thank you, you know, a for your service and be.

00:56:22.862 --> 00:56:25.545
Thank you so much for joining us today you guys made it easy.

00:56:25.545 --> 00:56:40.130
So that was a great way to kick off season three of no wrong choices.

00:56:40.130 --> 00:56:42.494
What a remarkable person.

00:56:42.494 --> 00:56:45.260
What a fascinating conversation with Doug Horner.

00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:52.219
We could have spoke for another two hours and probably still not have scratched the surface of what we really wanted to get to.

00:56:53.920 --> 00:57:22.418
I am fascinated by this notion of you know, and I absolutely believe what he said is that, having worked now in robotics and and autonomous and essentially autonomous war, that it's absolutely changed his viewpoint on what war is now right, and he even spoke about it like how he's transition from what war meant to him as a young man, what it meant to him as a middle aged man, what it means to him now and what war would truly mean to all of us.

00:57:22.418 --> 00:57:22.699
On that state.

00:57:22.699 --> 00:57:32.014
It's so fascinating in so many ways, but what I really was actually, you know I, what I really took away from that whole discussion, was a.

00:57:32.014 --> 00:57:39.619
I know this, I know that and I know I joked about it with in the, in the, in the interview itself about how they look.

00:57:39.619 --> 00:57:39.679
We.

00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:56.278
You know I don't want everyone doing this job this man is doing, because there are very few people who should be doing it, but at the same time, we need smart people to do jobs like this because, yes, we need people who are futurists, and he is a futurist yeah, I.

00:57:56.298 --> 00:57:57.380
There's so many things we learned in this interview.

00:57:57.380 --> 00:58:02.490
I think the most important thing is what a genuine guy he is.

00:58:02.490 --> 00:58:05.960
You know he answered questions thoughtfully, honestly, but I mean the guy's fearless.

00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:07.523
I mean the guy's fearless.

00:58:07.523 --> 00:58:09.827
The guy was so determined.

00:58:09.827 --> 00:58:13.612
I mean talk about failure is not an option when he's going through seal training.

00:58:13.612 --> 00:58:21.891
And we're asking him Like your darkest thoughts in those moments, and he's like I was not gonna fail, like I just it wasn't even in his thought process.

00:58:21.891 --> 00:58:23.954
So the determination is what I take from this.

00:58:24.481 --> 00:58:35.978
There are also so many parts about his youth that you know him switching swimming, competition and then going into water polo and being part of a team.

00:58:35.978 --> 00:58:43.206
I mean we all think that him being a part of a team and seeing how important that was in his life lent itself to the seals.

00:58:43.206 --> 00:58:50.393
Later, I mean it was a brotherhood with the seals, right, you know that's the biggest team there is, the best team you know there is.

00:58:50.393 --> 00:58:54.536
So I found that fascinating and I think that was an important part of his life.

00:58:54.536 --> 00:58:57.927
Even playing ping pong, you know reflexes, things like that.

00:58:57.927 --> 00:59:01.253
He just mentioned so many little things that you could see why it added up to.

00:59:01.755 --> 00:59:12.478
This guy is going to be a very successful guy and you know, I think we also learned about when he switched to robotics how he's able to make that a career.

00:59:12.478 --> 00:59:16.623
I mean, there's no Path that I've read in any book of.

00:59:16.623 --> 00:59:25.918
Okay, you're gonna do this and then you're gonna make, you know, arrangements with the government to better understand underwater robotics and you're gonna make a living at it.

00:59:25.918 --> 00:59:27.099
Like where's that manual?

00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:29.865
like so yeah yeah, where was that?

00:59:29.865 --> 00:59:31.989
Where was that in the high end?

00:59:31.989 --> 00:59:32.931
I never got that.

00:59:33.820 --> 00:59:44.737
My guidance counselor miss that, so here's a guy who is determined this could be super smart, obviously physically imposing, but fearless, and failure wasn't an option.

00:59:44.818 --> 00:59:54.559
I love that you know, there's an old saying that that I use every once in a while I've heard other people uses that it's good sometimes it's good to be a jack of all trades and a master at none.

00:59:54.559 --> 01:00:03.213
And really he, he basically said I, I know a lot of things really well and I don't really know any one thing very well.

01:00:03.213 --> 01:00:15.217
But you know, if you know at least a bunch of things really very well, eventually it all kind of comes together and you and you became, and you can become, a master at certain things, which is what he knew it was a strength.

01:00:15.277 --> 01:00:16.099
He knew the strength.

01:00:18.664 --> 01:00:20.567
And that's really what kind of maybe.

01:00:20.567 --> 01:00:28.860
Maybe was the most fascinating part of this entire interview just the idea of maximizing as many portions of your knowledge as you can.

01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:37.210
Yeah, you know, and that sort of leads me into what I'm reflecting upon, which is composure and perspective.

01:00:37.469 --> 01:00:51.467
You know, when I think about what is a seal like, like, what is that person who's able to put themselves out there in this way and to endure so much and to to hang in there and to achieve the things that you have to?

01:00:51.467 --> 01:01:05.909
In order to get to that point, like you have to be wired in a really unique and different way, and the way he talked about his journey, the way he talked about his life was, was very matter of fact, meaning I did this.

01:01:05.909 --> 01:01:08.050
I didn't like that, so I did that.

01:01:08.050 --> 01:01:12.757
I didn't really, you know, necessarily want to do this, so I did that and everything was.

01:01:12.757 --> 01:01:20.306
I just did it like like there wasn't this major revelation, there wasn't this major oh my God, moment.

01:01:20.306 --> 01:01:25.132
It was just this is what I did next, and he just seemed to have that.

01:01:25.132 --> 01:01:33.800
That, that that composure and just great perspective about this is my journey and putting myself out there and this is where I'm at it, which I just thought was absolutely fascinating.

01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:36.864
And working with good people, like he mentioned that too right.

01:01:36.864 --> 01:01:38.126
We talk about that all the time.

01:01:38.126 --> 01:01:51.764
You want to be someone who people want to work with and have a good time, no matter what you're doing building robots, navy seal, like it doesn't matter you want to be someone people want to work with and that's how I feel about the two of you every single time.

01:01:51.925 --> 01:02:00.655
I hear your voices so with that, doug, thank you so much for joining this episode of no wrong choices.

01:02:00.655 --> 01:02:02.503
We also thank you for joining us.

01:02:02.503 --> 01:02:20.052
If this or another journey story inspired you to think of a friend who could be a great guest, please let us know by sending us a note by the contact page of no wrong choices dot com, as I mentioned off the top, please support us by following no wrong choices on your favorite podcasting platform while giving us a five star rating.

01:02:20.052 --> 01:02:31.347
And then, last but not least, we encourage you to join the no wrong choices community by connecting with us on linkedin, facebook, instagram threads and X by searching for no wrong choices.

01:02:31.347 --> 01:02:34.228
On behalf of two share Saxena and Larry Shay.

01:02:34.228 --> 01:02:35.230
I'm Larry Samuels.

01:02:35.230 --> 01:02:40.135
Thank you again for joining us and remember there are no wrong choices on the road to success.

01:02:40.135 --> 01:02:42.456
We learn from every experience.