Get Back Up with Comedy Publicist Pam Loshak

Larry Samuels 0:02

Hello and welcome to No Wrong Choices, a podcast about the adventures of life that explores the career journeys of successful and interesting people. I'm Larry Samuels, soon to be joined by the other fellas, Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea. If you've been enjoying the show, please support us by giving No Wrong Choices a five-star rating on your podcasting platform and by pressing follow or subscribe. You can also learn more about us at NorongChoices.com and by looking for us on social media. This episode features comedy publicist Pam Lo Shack, who has supported clients such as Colin Quinn, Michael Che, Neil Brennan, and so many others. To be upfront, she's somebody who I've been friends with for many, many years. And Larry Shea, you may not know this, but you have met Pam along the way, so perhaps you're the best next person to set this conversation up.

Larry Shea 0:55

In that case, it'll be good to talk to Pam again, I guess. I don't know how long I've known Pam, but we're gonna talk to her today, which is pretty exciting. I don't know anything about PR. I don't know what it's like to be a publicist, to um have the relationship with the media, essentially, is what we're talking about. I don't know how they get paid. I don't know how you get into it. I'm so excited to talk to Pam just because I know so little about this subject. So that's exciting. And I know her journey very specifically is fascinating. So cool to listen to her.

Tushar Saxena 1:28

The thing I really want to hear about from Pam is, you know, she's a freelance contractor for all intents and purposes. And, you know, when you own your own business and you have to worry about where the next paycheck comes from, it ain't easy. And I know that from first hand experience a lot early on, early on in my career, I was a freelance contractor. So it's not an easy life to start with. So, you know, when you have that opportunity to join a company, or if you know, or if tomorrow, you know, some company calls and says, We want you to head up our division, you know, would you do it? And there are there are always pros and cons to that decision. I would love to hear you know what that thinking is from someone like Pam, who's in that situation currently.

Larry Samuels 2:06

Well, hopefully hopefully she'll get to that. And uh, you know, if anybody's ever paid their dues, it's Pam. So with no further ado, here is Pam Loshak. Pam, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Thanks for having me.

Larry Shea 2:18

Hey Pam, nice to talk to you. This is Larry Shea. Um tell us about the job. What is the job? What's your role? And and let's start by giving people a good background of what it is exactly that you do day to day.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

So I do a lot of things day to day. It's it's people ask me this a lot, and it's hard for me to sum it up, but the best way I've described it is at a certain point in a comedian's career, because I specialize in stand-up comedians um who are very much renaissance people. So, you know, they have stand-up, but very rarely does it end there. It's there's usually uh, you know, a TV show and a podcast and a movie and a book and you know, whatever else. Sometimes sometimes an off-Broadway run, you know, a like a one-man show or one woman show, one person show. Um, I know how woke your audience is. Um so it's handling all of those things. Um and when I say handling it, there's a certain point where it makes sense uh for a publicist to be added to a comedian's team, a certain point in their career. And I'm kind of like a manager, um, except I manage a very specific piece of their career. So I manage the media piece of their career.

Tushar Saxena 3:57

So, Pam, let's uh now that you've given us an overview of what the job entails, of what your job entails a bit, take us back to the beginning a little bit. Tell us what got you involved, not simply in wanting to get into, let's say, the management of comedians' careers, but in entertainment in general. Was this always something that you wanted even as a even as a young girl?

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Um no, I mean, I it's funny when I look back at like eight-year-old diary entries of mine. I mean, listen, not once did I write, dear diary, when I grow up, I want to work at a bank, you know? Or I want to um fix cars or like you know, it was always something in the creative arts arena, but like I didn't know that. I mean, my family, my father worked in the entertainment industry, he was uh uh an entertainment lawyer in the music business, so he worked for um Sony Music and then um opened up his own practice and uh worked with various musical acts, including Cool and the Gang. Um so I do think, and then my oldest brother, who's 22 years older than I am, is also an entertainment lawyer uh in the film business. Not that I knew any of this as like a a child, you know, a five-year-old, but I I was aware um of the uh like I had family in the entertainment industry. So I think when you grow up in that um like it just subconsciously implants itself as an option in your mind that that can happen, you know? So um in in that way, uh um I knew that that was a possibility, but I I don't think I was like thinking of that at the age of six. I mean, that's what kind of intense people do you have on this podcast?

Tushar Saxena 6:23

Look, some of the people we have on this show are very, very focused.

SPEAKER_04 6:27

I mean, I wanted I thought I was for five minutes, I wanted to be a writer for five minutes, I wanted to be a jewelry designer for five minutes.

Tushar Saxena 6:37

At six years old? That's still pretty focused.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

I mean, kind of, just because like my mom got me some beads and I made a necklace. Although I will say I was always very business-minded when I look back in retrospect now. Everything I did, I was always like, how can I turn this into a business? So, like when I was probably six or seven, I I went up to my mother and I was like, I'm opening up a lemonade stand outside of my brother's Little League games. I'm doing this, mom. And I like set it up and I made signs and I was very charming and I made a bunch of money. I think I made like 30 bucks or something.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Very nice.

SPEAKER_04 7:17

Um, when I made when for the five minutes that I was really into making jewelry, I like made these necklaces and I set up a stand outside of my grocery store and tried to sell the necklaces, which I'm sure was illegal. You know, I I definitely didn't have uh whatever license you need to do that. But so I will say that I was always business minded, I guess. I mean, when I was very young, I wouldn't play house with my friends. I would play um uh entertainment manager and I would really sit on the on the top bunk and I would make my friend be my assistant and sit on the bottom bunk.

Tushar Saxena 8:09

You did not do that.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

I 100% did. Granted, I did it in a princess dress, we were in full makeup, you know, we were like dressed up, but um, I guess that that is sort of the way my mind always worked.

Larry Samuels 8:26

Wow. So when did you start to you know push towards I guess the real thing?

SPEAKER_04 8:32

An actual job?

Larry Samuels 8:35

I was gonna be 10 years old? When did you bring this to real life?

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Um, you know, I uh I graduated college. I worked in advertising for five minutes because I they recruited me out of college um for a for a big advertising agency called Media Vest. Um and like nobody else had all my friends were going to San Francisco uh San Diego to like, you know, get high and like hang out on the beach. And I was like, okay, well, how about I get a paycheck? And so I did that, and that was hilarious. I mean, I started that job two weeks out of college. That's not at all where I should have been. And so I quit that job and was cocktailing and just doing things around the city. And like eventually I just got very um, this will come into play later, which is why I'm gonna mention this. I've never been the type of person, uh, I always need to know where my how my rent is being paid. I need to know, you know, where my paycheck is coming from. So, you know, the fact that I'm a freelancer technically now is nothing I ever in a million years would have imagined I would be cut out for. Um so I, but you know, going back, I think I was just um I was sick of like the the instability of working at restaurants and I was really broke. And um so I I knew that I wanted to work in the entertainment industry, but I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. So I set my sights on getting a job at a at a talent agency because they're kind of the nerve center of the industry, and I figured that it would be a good place for me to figure out what direction I wanted to go in, and hopefully I would have the connections to do so once I figured that out.

Larry Samuels 10:32

So you pivoted from working at the ad agency and doing other jobs to to kind of to make ends meet, and then you moved over to the talent agency, is that right?

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Yes, which you when you start out at a talent agency, you're not gonna make ends meet. I mean, I started there as a floater, which means that you're an I was working at uh WME, which is a major, major, major William Morris Endeavor. Yeah, it's a major uh talent agency. And um, you know, the way I got that was that I at the time I just so happened to be dating somebody that knew somebody who was an assistant there who got my resume in. Um, but I did not start in the mail room. I didn't, you know, I was a little bit older than than the other people who usually who started who who typically start at the level that I started at. Usually people come right out of college and do it, and I was like 26, 25. So I just didn't want to be in the mail room. I didn't want to do all of that stuff. Um, so I got a job as a floater, which is an in-house temp, and you report to HR every day, and they put you on a desk if an assistant is out sick or needs extra help with a project, and you float around from desk to desk, which is actually a better experience than being in the mailroom. Yeah, but it's not the track that you typically take to be an agent.

Larry Shea 12:05

I I just um I I don't want to gloss over this part, and I want to get back to this, but did you study pub publicity or marketing in college at all? Or you did where did that spark happen?

SPEAKER_04 12:16

I was very high in college.

Larry Shea 12:19

Um you studied extracurricular activities. I was gonna say study botanicals.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

My focuses my focuses were elsewhere. However, I you know, I always was uh I always gravitated towards comedy. I knew who all the comedians were at an inappropriately young age. I was always doing impressions in school. I was always the funny one in school. I was always a lot of things in school, but the but I was also always funny. Um I was all I was I did a lot of theater. I don't think I've missed an episode of SNL since I was like seven years old. Like I I shouldn't have known who all the who all the stand-ups were on HBO, you know, at the age of like seven.

Larry Samuels 13:15

Like, but that's what great parents.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

That's what I was watching. Or neglectful parents.

Tushar Saxena 13:22

No, it was cool parents. That's cool parents.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Um but um so so I'm sorry, what was the question again? When did I get the bug for what?

Larry Shea 13:31

Yeah, what was your major?

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Like, did you actually have a I majored in cultural anthropology? Okay, so it's basically like this the study of how us how groups of people operate and and and um interact with each other, which is I mean, it's all fitting, you know, considering where I've wound up. It's exact it's like exactly what I do. I mean, um it's just that it was I I I've always been um very interested in and very uh uh insightful of of human behavior, if that makes sense. Like I can tell you plenty of things that I'm not good at. Um, for example, figuring out how my stove works. If I don't know if if any of our previous conversation is gonna get on this podcast.

Larry Shea 14:29

We'll get to air frying in a little while.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

We talked we talked about how I don't know how to use my stove, but there are plenty of things that I'm really not good at. But I am exceptionally good. I'm I it's my talent, I think. Everybody is talented in a certain area. And for me, it is um understanding the the language of the art of comedy, I always have. It's just a language I always got, and also um understanding human behavior very, very well, um, which is not always a fun thing.

Tushar Saxena 15:11

So when you were over at William Morris, where and obviously floating from desk to desk, did you um maybe you didn't have a maybe you didn't have the opportunity to kind of maybe I wouldn't say pick and choose where you could go, but did you have a preference of working comedy desks over, let's say, actors or uh or other or other type of uh or other uh divisions and departments?

SPEAKER_04 15:34

Well, the way it happened, the way things played out at at um William Morris for me was that yeah, it was hopping from place to place. And you know, I was I always say that I was at William Morris at the right time with the right attitude. Right because I had no ego about it. You know what I mean? Like I didn't go in there expecting to do anything high profile. I really just wanted to learn and figure out what was going on, you know? So um there weren't specifically comedy desks, there were agents who handled comedians amongst other clients. And when I was there, it just so happened that there were three coordinators, which is it's like a junior agent level.

Tushar Saxena 16:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Um, who and and coordinators don't have assistants, who were all in the TV department and all had a bunch of stuff going on, and they also worked with comedians. And so I went up to them and I was like, hey, I'm really interested in the stuff you do. If you ever need any help with anything, if you want me to get you coffee, if you want me to file, answer your phones, whatever, like let me know. I'll stay after work if you want, or you can put you can put in a request with HR to have me come help you guys. So I wound up, and they did, they really responded to that. And so I wound up being sort of their unofficial assistant. And then when one of them, this guy Scott Locker, got promoted to an agent position and uh was able to hire an assistant, he assistant proposed to me and I accepted. That was really cute. And so, and he was just, I mean, not everybody people have like horror stories about working at agencies. I I was so, it was such a wonderful time in my life working for him. And I was there for you know, two and a half years. He was an amazing manager. He was also really good. He was like the golden boy in the TV department. So as long as I was under his wing, no, nothing bad was gonna happen to me. And he was very, very good to me. Um, you know, that was sort of important in in me um developing how I wanted to exist, like my like how I wanted to operate in the business world. Right, right, right.

Larry Shea 18:14

And so what are you doing at this point? What was your um your hands on? Are you interacting with clients? Are you doing administrative type stuff?

SPEAKER_04 18:22

I was as an assistant, so I was like roll rolling calls. But when you're at an agency, you can listen in, you're on the line when all the calls are happening, unless they tell you it's private. So I was able to listen to all of that and like um, you know, figure out what I wanted to do. And he repped at the time a relatively unknown Bill Burr. He repped uh Greg Giraldo, he repped Whitest Kids You Know. Um, a couple of those people are dead now. Um hey, yay, ha ha comedy. Big laugh.

Tushar Saxena 18:58

Um but way to bring it down. Way to bring it down, Peter.

SPEAKER_04 19:04

Well, Greg Geraldo, I don't know if you guys know who Greg Geraldo is. Do you know who he was? Okay, well, whatever, Greg. He died on my birthday, which is really shitty of him. And um he was probably the first comedian that I feel like I personally knew, like I had a personal relationship with. But so I was, I was, it was my the actual work was all administrative, but I was also like going to, you know, when somebody had a taping or somebody had a TV appearance, I would go with Scott, my boss, to all of those things.

Tushar Saxena 19:36

Right. You would represent him, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Represent, no, we would just like like you would just go.

Tushar Saxena 19:43

I gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Yeah, just for support. And um, and then I decided that I wanted to sort of go into like a uh a world, I wanted to go into original programming, which is which is uh a department at a network, they call it a development department where you William Morris? No, at a network. So I I decided I wanted to go over to a network and develop and and work in development um in comedy.

Larry Samuels 20:17

Why did you choose to do that rather than go the the agent path?

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Oh, cuz no. I mean Larry, you and I have known each other for many, many years now. I'm not an agent.

Larry Samuels 20:34

I would ask the question.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

I would not thrive in that environment at all. Nor did I want to. Like it was not anything that I wanted anything to do with. Um so um, so I decided, you know, as I talk about it, it's like, you know, the the decisions that I made along the way are like, you know, like I decided, okay, I want to work in New York. This was in New York City, by the way. And at the time everybody is like moving out to LA to like, you know, grow their care, build their career in entertainment because the entire industry is out there, or at the time it was, and I was like, I want to stay in New York and I want to work in development at Comedy Central in New York City. So basically I was limiting myself to like two jobs, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

But it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, I didn't pull it out of thin air. It it was also that my boss at William Morris was like best friends with the head of the New York development department at Comedy Central.

Tushar Saxena 21:47

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

So which I knew. So it's not like I pull, you know, it's not like I invented, like, how about I want you to get a little bit more.

Larry Samuels 21:56

Ironically on a nice smooth path.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

I knew that I I knew that I had an in. There, you know. Um, so I figured it was just an amount of a matter of waiting, which it was. Fun fact. Um, so the guy that I that I did wind up eventually going and working for as this is as his assistant at Comedy Central is a guy named Lou Wallach. His assistant at the time, right before me, was none other than John Mullaney.

Tushar Saxena 22:26

No kidding. Really?

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Yeah. So I had to wait for John Mullaney to leave. Um, which he did. I don't know if you've heard about him.

Larry Samuels 22:36

Thankfully for all of us, or fortunately for all of us, because I do very much appreciate his work.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

Um, so then I went over and I worked at Comedy Central as an assistant, which I was like, oh my God, this is my dream job. This is it. I've landed, I'm gonna work my way up. I'll I'll be here for you know 30 years, I'll eventually be an executive. This is exactly what I want to do. It's perfect, it's perfect. It's in New York, and it wound up being my worst nightmare.

Tushar Saxena 23:07

Why is that?

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Because I was working for a verbally abusive coke head.

Tushar Saxena 23:15

Okay. Okay. That sounds unpleasant. I guess it's not every problem. Yeah, that's that's uh that's a problem, right? That's obviously a problem. And as you said, you had such a great experience while you were at William Morris. A lot of people expect that you know that will be the way the career works.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

So I had I had no idea. I was so spoiled. I had no idea how good I had it. I mean, also, you know, Viacom in general, and it's not Viacom specifically, it's just working in any media corporation is tough. It's not um, it's not, I would say at best, if you're lucky, it's 50% about the actual work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

And 50% about navigating, you know, whatever the corporate structure is and stroking ego, you know, executives, egos, office politics, sure.

Tushar Saxena 24:16

Yeah, so it's a lot about playing the game, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

And dealing with, and everybody's constantly terrified of losing their job, you know, so it really is like eat or be eaten. And um, I and I I understand, like rightly so. I mean, people very, very high-up executives who are making a ton of money get laid off or get fired for no reason, just because there's a changing of the guards, you know, or um, you know, uh uh their company merges with another company, and like, and all of a sudden you go from so there, it's sort of you're you're kind of shadow boxing all the time. Like, there's no way to feel like you have any kind of security, you know? So which I didn't have to deal with as an assistant, as an assistant, you're just there, but I had to deal with the effect that that has on um the executives that did work there, like psychologically, and how that makes them behave, you know.

Tushar Saxena 25:27

So then how long did you end up staying at uh Comedy Central?

SPEAKER_04 25:32

I was there for two and a half years, and so I was trying to so the so in entertainment, in in what I the field that I'm in, one of the hardest jumps that you're ever gonna have to make is from assistant to executive or like assistant to junior executive. You really have to have somebody who's like championing on championing you, like ushering you into through that transition, or it's never gonna happen.

Tushar Saxena 26:00

Need a sherpa, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

You really do. I mean, it's it's just so, and I was working for somebody who had no interest in helping me and uh you know, lied about a bunch of stuff and like whatever, ultimately he got fired. He works for Netflix now, he knows I don't like him. He's I'd say all of this, I would say all of this to his face. And by the way, every other boss I've ever had, going way back to my first boss at the advertising agency, I am still in touch with and I have very good relationships with. I adore them, they adore me. He was a nightmare.

Larry Shea 26:40

I I have to ask this question right now because it's it's important because we we often don't spend enough time on maybe the decision we make that we regret it, right? And or the the twist and turn in the road. Ultimately, it led to where you are now, which is fantastic. If you had it to do over again, though, would you have made the same choice to move to Comedy Central?

SPEAKER_04 26:59

Yes, because it looked good on my resume.

Larry Shea 27:02

Okay. That's a fair answer.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

You know? Um I wish that there had been another position that would have had um the equivalent clout, you know, uh, for my resume in the comedy world, but there really wasn't. I mean, I really had limited myself to like three jobs in without moving to LA.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

So um, so I was at Comedy Central, and it really got to the point where I was so um, I was so, it was like really affecting my like mental health being there and working for this guy. And I, you know, things were happening like I would go, so at the time they moved to offices, but at the time, the offices were at Columbus Circle, which is right at the for those of anybody listening who doesn't know New York City, it's right at the tip of Central Park. And I lived right at the end of the other end of the other side of Central Park. So every day, just to try to like get myself grounded after work, I would walk the entire length of the park.

Larry Samuels 28:23

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Which is about up home. I was living on 110th Street at the time.

Larry Shea 28:29

So that's you're in the best shape of your life.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

I mean, I don't know. I was just walking just because I had to like decompress, wind down, work it out. Yeah, and then I would go home and I would like collapse on the couch watching TV, and I would start nodding off because I'd be so tired. And I would try to stay awake just because I needed time away from that audio, that office. Like I needed, like it was bad. It was really, really, really bad. And um, and so out of desk, I was just like, I have to get out of here. So I started interviewing, which by the way, my boss uh from William Morris, Scott, helped me, you know, hooked me up with other people and got me interviews. And it always came down to like me and one other person, but the other person was making a lateral move and I was trying to make the jump from assistant, and I would always lose it. And I was going into everything. I mean, I was I was interviewing for like reality TV jobs, which oh my god, thank God I didn't get any of those jobs. You know, um, and I just wasn't getting anything, and then so one of the things I had started doing when I was at Comedy Central's I started volunteering to help work the carpets, uh, the red carpets at the Comedy Central roasts.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:02

So I put that on my resume and claim that I had that I had PR experience, which I didn't, really.

Larry Samuels 30:12

Um maybe real life, you know, practical experience.

Tushar Saxena 30:16

Yeah, I agree. I think that's I think you actually did have experience. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04 30:19

I did not have PR experience. Going on a carpet and like showing someone where to go from a cat from a from a car, from a car service is not PR experience.

Larry Samuels 30:30

All right.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

But I said it, I said it and I stood by it. I stood by it. And um, and so uh truly out of desperation, I someone sent me like a list, a listing. I mean, you have no idea how much networking I was doing. Meetings with everybody, general meetings, interviews, contacting everybody. Can you get my resume in with this? I mean, really, really hustling. And then somebody sent me, I think a listing that they had found on Craigslist for like a junior publicist in the cop in the comedy world.

Larry Samuels 31:12

Craigslist of all places. That's the first time Craigslist has come up in any of these episodes.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

Well, that this was like 2006, maybe.

Larry Samuels 31:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

So like that's what was going on at the time. And um, and so I contacted this guy and I read the description, and I was like, I contacted him and I was like, um, here's my like I could give you my spiel, my like cover letter spiel, but you should just look at my resume and we should talk. Because my and and um so we did, and he offered me the job. And again, completely out of desperation, I took it. Um, just because I had to get out of Comedy Central. It was killing me. Like I was not in a good place. And um I took a 50% pay cut. I had no ben, I had no benefits. By the way, 50% pay cut, it's not like I was making a ton of money at Comedy Central. I was doing okay. Um for still 50% of anything, it's 50% for well, yeah, but I was, you know, uh like I was doing okay for somebody who was 30, you know, and single and no responsibilities and nothing no expenses in New York City with a rent stabilized apartment. You know what I mean? Yeah, like I I was doing okay, but I um I took a 50% pay cut. I had no health insurance, no benefits, no nothing. Um, but and but I it got me out of the assistant title world. It kept me in the comedy world, and um it was just a place where I could go and still have a paycheck, no matter how small, and and and not be like emotionally tortured every day.

Larry Samuels 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:17

And and still you know, I figured I could still interview, I could still do all the things I was doing, but maybe I wouldn't be so miserable and I wouldn't be an assistant anymore. So I did that, and I and I want to point this out because it's important. I was 31 when I took that job.

Tushar Saxena 33:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

So I don't know how it is in other industries, but like to be just coming out of the assistant world at 31 in the entertainment industry is very, very old. It's late in the game. It's very late in the game. So, you know, that's something that I was wrestling with, you know, within myself. And um, but I did it anyway. That was uh 2007, then 2008 hit, and if you recall, there was this little housing bubble thing that burst. I do remember that great recession recollection in 2008. It wasn't a big deal, it was kind of like loosely reported on. Um and so everybody, all of my leads, all of like my job leads were like, actually, we're not we're taking this job posting down and we're letting everybody go. We're like laying everybody off, right?

Tushar Saxena 34:44

Yeah. No, I remember all that time, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

So I couldn't even interview. And um, you know, I oh I Larry knows this, Larry, Larry Samuels, the Larry Samuels that's on. Um, you know, I always had a second job. I I had a second job probably until I was like 36.

Larry Samuels 35:08

You sold a lot of apples, from what I remember.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

Yes. Well, one of my jobs, uh, famously for anybody that was in my life at that time, is I I sold apples Eliza Doolittle style at a farmer's market in in Brooklyn. And I did not live with the accent and everything? Uh no, because I was so bundled up. It was year-round. So the only time they canceled the market was if the high temperature was below something like 21 degrees. So if it was like 10 degrees all day, but for an hour it was 25, you were you were coming to work. And it was and it was for $10 an hour, and it was every Saturday, and I had to be there at 7 a.m. I did not live in Brooklyn, I lived on the upper west side.

Larry Shea 36:12

Oh my goodness. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

So I had to, I was getting up at 5 a.m. in in the freezing, freezing cold um to haul my cookies to Fort Green to sell apples, and it was like hardcore manual labor. I mean, you have to set it up. There were, I remember there were like six and a half foot tall wooden tables that I that you had to like unload from the truck. I mean, it was a thing for ten dollars an hour because I needed, I just everything counted. You know, I I had restaurants that I worked at on the weekends. There was a short period of time where I was working seven days a week. Um, but I don't know, I just wasn't ready to give up on figuring out a place for myself. It was hard though. I mean, I definitely had times where I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work. I got to figure out something else to do because don't forget, again, I'm in my 30s at this point. So all of my friends around me in the entertainment industry are getting traction in their jobs, you know, and their executives. And some of them are are far enough along that they're transitioning to like senior level executives, you know, and I'm selling apples in, I mean, I looked like I wore all the clothing that I could possibly wear. I looked like the kid from a Christmas story who can't put his arms down. So um, and then but you know, while all of this was happening, um I was also very much in the comedy world. And I was at comedy shows all the time. And between my days at William Morris and my days at Comedy Central, and then my days um at the job that I had at that time in in comedy publicity, like I knew a lot of comedians and I knew the upcoming class very, very, very well. And again, I was very aware of what my talents were, and one of them is that I speak comedian, like I speak that language. So all of these comedians also really loved me. And um, I don't know, it just I it just got to the point where I was like, how about I remember there was a a moment where I very clearly said to myself, I was like, how about I stop asking going to all these other people, asking them to let me do what I want to do, and how about I just do it? And and at the time I thought to myself, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm, I'm going to do PR for comedians, but also I'm gonna like pitch other projects. If I have an idea for a show, if I have an idea for this, for that, like I'll I'll pitch that. And it's really not my problem what the in what label, what title the industry wants to give me. That's their problem. What what matters for me is that I'm working with talent with with talent that everybody else wants to work with. If I'm doing that, then they'll they'll I'll get I'll get in the building, you know, like they'll let me in. They'll have to. And so I started um, and I also have an eye for talent. So like for comedy talent. You you you put me in a room with a a band, I'm not gonna be able to tell you what they're what they're but comedy, five minutes, I'll tell you. Um and so I started doing, I started offering to do PR for all of them for free.

Tushar Saxena 40:18

So then that's that's actually leads me well into my next question here. So then who was that fur who was the first client that bit and said, yes, Pam, you're my guy. Well, uh, I want you to lead the way for me.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

Well, the up a the upcoming class, the incoming class of comedians at the time was Michael Che and Pete Davidson. Oh wow, and Dan Soder, and uh Big J Ogerson, and I mean, I don't know how much you know your comedians, um, who else was around? I mean, a lot of big names, as there always are. Like you have it with every comedy incoming comedy class, you have the stars. Um, and so I just started doing stuff for them for free, thinking to myself, I'm just gonna do this thing and the money will come. Because they I believe that these people have careers that are big enough that um that eventually they'll be able to pay me.

Larry Shea 41:23

So hold on a second, because this is important. Like you're you're saying bring them this stuff, just do the stuff for them. You're getting them interviews, you're getting them scripts, opportunities.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

How's that? No, it's it's it's interviews to support whatever uh whatever promoting they were promoting, whatever projects they had going on. So like one of the first big quote-unquote gets that I got was I got uh Michael Che a cover story on Village Voice on the Village Voice. Um, because he was just like this wonder kind. Like he was like, oh, who's the one, who's the like boy gee, boy comedy genius at the time? Um and uh so how does that put money in your pocket?

Larry Shea 42:09

How like specifically did it. You bring him an interview for Village Voice, right? Like, what do you have to show for that?

Larry Samuels 42:16

Well Street credit.

Larry Shea 42:18

Right, right? It's just building, right? It's building your reputation.

SPEAKER_04 42:21

So going from there, yes. Yes, okay, yes, and going from there, you know, I I was doing things like that for comedians who were. I mean, I bring up Michael Che because he's like a household name now, but it was also just any of these younger, like hot young comics that everybody had respect for.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

So that led to, I think he was my first paying client, Hannibal Burris. Okay, who I remember, yeah, who I also knew from you know the clubs. But I but he reached out to me one day and was like, hey, I have this special coming out. I'm looking to hire a publicist. Can we meet for coffee for a drink or whatever and talk? And I was like, Yeah, but I don't think he would have done that had I not occupied a space in his mind where I was already doing this other stuff.

Larry Shea 43:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Um that was the beginning that started to set up your and that and then people hear that I that I was working with Hannibal and I was getting him a lot, there was a lot of heat on him. And this I actually repped Hannibal during the whole Cosby thing, which if you don't know what I'm talking about, then I did my job well. Um did you do you know what I'm talking about?

Tushar Saxena 43:36

I know what you're talking about, yes.

Larry Shea 43:38

I don't, so yeah, tell her listen.

SPEAKER_04 43:40

Okay, well, the thing that the the match that lit the fire that brought down the Cosby house was um a stand up bit that Hannibal did at a show in Philly, and somebody in the audience without his unbound. Knowns to Hannibal and without his permission, taped the bit and put it online and it went viral. And the bit was about um how there had been like decades of rape allegations against him, and it went viral and it sparked everything that that happened.

Larry Samuels 44:21

So was that an inside known story within the comedy universe?

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Is it what?

Larry Samuels 44:27

Was it a known thing, like an unspoken secret within the comedy universe, what Cosby was doing?

SPEAKER_04 44:35

Um I don't know that I would say that. I don't know if I was aware of it. I mean I I don't I I don't I don't know that I would say that. Certainly, I don't think anybody knew the extent to to uh that he was truly a serial rapist predator. I mean, like I I I don't know. I mean, I think some people knew that there were allegations vaguely, but you know the media put a spotlight on it. The media really did not cover it.

Larry Samuels 45:14

Got it.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

They didn't want it, it was inconvenient for them to. I mean, it was very different before Cosby and me too, you know, like um, and neither of those sort of movements are perfect, by the way.

Larry Samuels 45:32

There's a lot of hypocrisy in it, and a lot of they're very flawed, but you know, um so so your role was to try to disconnect Hannibal from the story?

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Yes.

Larry Samuels 45:46

And how and how do you do that?

SPEAKER_04 45:50

Um well first of all, I had every every media outlet banged down my door for an interview with him. Every single one. From the highest of brow to the lowest of brow. Um very aggressively. It was it was very surprising to me that you know outlets that sort of pride themselves on um on being uh you know distinguished were acting like Tamzy, you know. Um so and at the time, and the thing is, like, I I think if you I think if Hannibal would say this, like he doesn't regret doing it, but he didn't he didn't perform that bit to be like a social justice warrior. Like that's not what he was doing. And it wasn't a story about him. So um, you know, what we and at the time he had a a national theater tour that he was promoting. It was there were other things going on. So what I did was I was like, here's what you're gonna do. While everything is as hot as it is now, anybody that wants to talk to you can only talk to you if they agree to not ask you about Cosby.

Larry Samuels 47:13

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

You're not gonna talk about it at all. And if we lose press, which we did, we lost a lot of press, fine. And then when things, then what you're gonna do is when things cool off a little bit, you're gonna talk about it a lot. So that it's in your terms, so that it's not news.

Larry Samuels 47:31

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 47:33

So that no one can write a headline saying Hannibal Burris breaks his silence because you've talked about it all the time. And also when you talk about it, you're gonna talk about it in a very boring way.

Tushar Saxena 47:49

Wow. So is that okay, so then let's talk about the notion of controversial topics or obviously uh the the Hannibal Burris is is kind of an outlier, obviously, because that really sort of that little spark that you know I won't I'm not gonna say it it it it little spark that that I don't think many could have seen. But let's say uh controversial topics is that how you would then treat then subsequent comedians later on say, hey, look, if something happens like this, this is this is the game plan with how we go forward.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

Well, I have my own company now. And part of the reason that I have my own company, one of the many reasons I have my own company and I don't go to a big PR firm is because I can pick and choose who I work with. So if there is a comedian who has to apologize, legitimately apologize for something, I'm probably not working with that person. Anybody who says something, anybody that I work with, I would never ask them as a comedian to censor themselves or apologize for anything. Part of being a comedian is really honing your own voice. So you I would never ask a comedian to alter their voice or pretend or anything. And if there is something that is apology worthy, again, I'm probably not working with them.

Larry Samuels 49:28

So, Pamela, let's build upon the story of Hannibal. So, you know, you've been working with Michael Che, you've been working with Hannibal, you're starting to develop a practice. You know, when did momentum kick in? When did you really start to build out a practice for yourself?

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Well, part of what happened is that the the comedians that I started working with for free, their careers developed just as I had counted on. So that's when things kind of started to grow for me. Um the fact that I worked with Hannibal got around. So, you know, comedians talk. It's a lot of word of mouth. So, like somebody might have had a special coming out or a tour, whatever they had going on, and they'd go up to Hannibal and they'd be like, Who does your PR? You know, like who's and he'd say my name, and then they'd reach out, and like, um, although at that time, not no one was really reaching out to me. I got a lot of no's. I got a lot of um, like typically, unless unless you know the comedian, um, you have to, you would reach out to their manager and be like, hey, I know so-and-so has this project coming up. If you're thinking about bringing on a publicist, I'd love to be part of the conversation, I'd love to chat. And there were people who just didn't pay me any mind because I was like, I wasn't part of a big company. I wasn't, you know, who was I? I was just some schmo, and they just didn't really give me the time of day. Um, but some of the other comedians did because they spoke to Hannibal. And then their managers had to pay attention to me.

Larry Samuels 51:22

Interesting. So that really broke it open for you.

SPEAKER_04 51:25

Well, it was one of the things. And then um, and and there were a few different clients that I started working with that um that helped that happen. And then what's you know, if you're if you're working with like I have a a couple of clients now, one of them is Sam Marrill, who's like super hot, super hot in the comedy stand-up world right now. Are you familiar?

Tushar Saxena 51:57

Are is are people I've seen some of his stand-up gigs on Comedy Central.

SPEAKER_04 52:01

Okay, so the so and all of the comedians love him. And I'm getting a lot of business has come off of that for me because they all want to know who's doing his PR, you know, and he and I have a very, very good relationship. I'm doing a really good job for him. So he he he throws people my way as well. So there are a few um a few clients who have done that for me, but what eventually starts happening is that the industry starts knowing your name.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

So I would say, you know, another thing that happened that that was the Oscar nomination for the Lucas Brothers, that sort of put me in a different league.

Larry Samuels 52:53

What's the story around that?

SPEAKER_04 52:56

So this was, I mean, it's hilarious it's actually hilarious. This was in 2021, so we're in full COVID, right? And um I had lost all my business and through no fault of my own. It's just nobody was touring, nobody was you know taping anything. There was no work for for me to be done for to be done. And um, but the one thing I was doing was my clients, the Lucas brothers, had written a script for a film called Judas and the Black Messiah.

Tushar Saxena 53:34

Oh my god, what a great movie that is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

And there were there was all kinds of Oscar buzz around it. So that was the one project I did. And um, so you know, that's a whole campaign. The the the there's a whole Oscar campaign leading up to the nomination, then once you get the nomination, it's a whole campaign after that. And by the way, Judas and the Black Passai is not a funny movie at all, but they but they wrote it. It's not hilarious at all, but it but they wrote it, and um so you know, I was like doing probably the most high-profile campaign, press campaign I've ever done, which they did get nominated, which was like a pretty amazing moment um for me and for them. And um, but I would then I'd like get off of whatever call or zoom I was on with them and like call up unemployment and get my unemployment benefits, you know? Because I was part of I got a small business loan. Like I'm definitely an example of um, you know, a business that was able to survive because of the resources that that were put out at that time. Um I mean, I would have figured out another way I would have borrowed money or something, but like all of my business disappeared. So um, so but anyway, they got they got the Oscar nomination, and that that put me in a different league. But it was like several leagues, you know, and so now I have managers that I've worked on various projects with and various clients with for many, many years, and I'm like their go-to person.

Larry Samuels 55:33

That's incredible for PR.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

So between those relationships, and it's not it's not all of the managers, it's you know, it's a it's like two or three, but that's all I need, and they have amazing clients. So between that and um word of mouth amongst comedians themselves, probably over the last I'd say, year and a half, my business has exploded. And I just raised my rates, which was like a big deal for me. Not none of my clients batted an eyelash. I was like wrestling with this and wrestling, oh my god, they're gonna leave. And then and I was like, okay, so for 2023, I raised my rates, and I'm like, wait, what? Okay, wait. So what are we doing on Tuesday? Like, like it was nothing. It was nothing.

Larry Samuels 56:30

Who are some of the people you're working with, Pam?

SPEAKER_04 56:34

Well, again, I don't know how how you know how into comedy you are, but some of the bigger names are I handle Bilbur's Touring, I uh Colin Quinn, uh Neil Brennan, the Lucas Brothers, Ms. Pat, Ida Rodriguez, Sam Morill, Jim Norton, um, I'm probably forgetting. So these are the bigger names. There's like a whole other bigger client. A whole other oh, Dosley Sloan, who's on the on the Daily Show. Um Nimesh Patel, Vir Das. I don't know if you know any of these people. Um, who else? Who else? Who else? Rosebud Baker, you probably don't know her. She you will, she's gonna be a superstar. Um she's a right.

Larry Samuels 57:25

It's fair to say a big roster of of you know well-known names that you know for for having hung in there for all this time, it's it's now come around and you're there.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

Yeah, and it um it's recent, you know, um, and I'm very lucky and not one moment of it is lost on me. Um and you know, it it was I was very much a late bloomer. Um I never, and here we come, here we come back to I never in a million years would have thought that I would have been happy being essentially a freelancer and having my own business. I thought that that would uh incite so much anxiety in me.

Larry Shea 58:20

It takes a lot of courage to step out there on your own like that. So I have to ask this question because you're an expert, right? So who else would we ask this question to? Is it true that all publicity is good publicity? No. In what way? Define that.

SPEAKER_04 58:36

Well, publicity is every every company, every industry in the world has a PR department. So I can really only speak to PR as it relates to comedians. Um but again, this comes down to the type of talent that I work with. I don't work with talent whose work can't speak for itself. So like when I uh when I promote somebody, I'm promoting their work. So if it's bad publicity, then it's gonna be bad publicity around their work. And and the the objective for my clients is to be loved for their work. Um if you are on the real housewives, yeah, probably all publicity. Publicity is good publicity.

Larry Samuels 59:41

That's fair. So, Pam, as we we work our way towards the end of the conversation, we we always want to hit you know advice for young people. So if there are you know younger people listening to this podcast who who wanna, I mean, I they can't follow your path because it is certainly quite unique and it's been an incredible story. But if somebody wanted to get to the point where you are today and and become a comedy publicist, you know, what guidance or advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:10

Specifically to become a comedy publicist? Yeah, or or to or to get in the space. If you if you know that you want to become a public a comedy publicist, go get an assistant job at one of the bigger agencies, like the bigger uh PR agencies. I it's totally uh stumbling upon this accident that I wound up at in the publicity department world. It was not what I set out to do. Um, but I think in general like career advice, what I what what what was really valuable to me is um I kept putting one foot in front of the other. Um I also do you know what? I also listened to like um a lot of like like sports coaching mentality stuff, like a lot of like boxing mentality.

Larry Samuels 1:01:17

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Does that make sense? Who said it?

Larry Samuels 1:01:19

And I know nothing about sports, but who's the one why I was so confused because I know that who's the who's the one?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:27

There's a boxing coach who said, get up, just get up, whatever you do, get up. Just get I would think I would think that would be every single boxing c boxing manager manager who said it who was like in a way that I was like, that and I and I that plays in my head.

Tushar Saxena 1:01:48

Anytime there's a disappointment, any time I feel that I feel like that was in I feel like that was in the last rec Rocky Balboa movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Okay, well, I don't know where I got it. Like I said, I'm very aware of my shortcomings. I do not know anything about sports, but it's but there was stuff like that, and the you know, I found the things that like really spoke to me. There were certain songs that spoke to me. So find those things that like keep you moving and keep and get the fuck up, no matter what, just get up. And um also like it was really important to me that I uh knew myself very well. Like I was very aware of what my strengths and my weaknesses were and are, and I'm very aware of what my talents are, what I had to offer that gave me an edge. I knew I had a couple things that nobody else had. And I knew that there had to be like I I knew that there had to be comedians that would really respond to having somebody on their team who wasn't like a greasy, slick entertainment person, but who also really intimately understood the art form. And I really banked on that. And it it worked, it didn't have to, though. I would have figured something else out, you know. But I I really am doing, I'm I'm I'm so happy professionally. I I can't I can't believe how amazing my professional life is. I I it's truly beyond my wildest dreams. And there was a lot of luck involved, but luck is when preparedness meets opportunity.

Larry Samuels 1:03:44

And and and and and the no-quit attitude, which I had the uh the good fortune of of seeing um a big part of this journey.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:50

Oh my god, Larry, you were there. You you bought me meals. You bought I would have starved without you. Larry was I've known Larry for how long now? Almost 20 years, I was thinking. Like 20 years?

Tushar Saxena 1:04:04

Almost as long as you've known Larry Shea.

Larry Shea 1:04:07

I met I've known her since childhood, so come up.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

I met Larry Samuels when I was working at William Morris.

Larry Samuels 1:04:14

Yeah, at a at a serious uh event. So, Pam, if if anybody, you know, if for those people who have been inspired by this conversation, um, and I know that you know a lot of the work that comes your way happens via you know word of mouth and referrals, but is there anywhere you'd want people to you know be directed, you know, website or anything uh of that ill that would be helpful to you?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:37

No.

Larry Shea 1:04:40

You can't find her.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:42

I don't have but like this is the thing, but this is this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Like, not like there are plenty of comedians who want, they want a a fancy, pretty website, and they want you to come in with the boardroom and then you know, I was working from home before COVID made it cool. Like, but you know, uh I don't have a website. I have I do have, I mean, my Instagram is at Pam Lo Shack, but there's only like 15, 20 pictures on there, and they're all of my dog noodle.

Tushar Saxena 1:05:24

No, I mean Pam, you are Pam, you're the first guest we've had on this pod who's uh said no, do not contact me in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:33

No, you can contact me, but there's nothing like you giving me a follow doesn't do anything for my career, but you're more than welcome to if you want. Also, I have they're all all the pictures are of Noodle. My dog is very, very cute. He's very silly. He's a Boston Terrier and he's and he's the best. Um, but I do not post a lot on there. So if you want to reach out to me, you can. I'll get it. But if you do want to see what I'm posting. What you can expect is like a really cute picture or video of Noodle like once every seven months.

Larry Samuels 1:06:10

Perfect. Well I I guess we'll do the best we can to to help you by putting this out there and any assistance you're willing to give us uh we will certainly accept. So um Pam, you know what an incredible story. You know, and you know thank you thank you so much for telling it to us today.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:28

Well thanks for having me. I'm honored to be invited. I didn't think I mean truly like I there were so many moments for so long where I just couldn't catch a break in in my work world. Like I the fact that I'm like getting asked to do anything is is always something that I'm grateful for.

Larry Samuels 1:06:49

So that was Pam Loshack uh my good friend Pam Loshack who I I hope lived up to the billing uh that I set up for her going into this conversation. You know what a what an incredible person who persevered through so much.

Tushar Saxena 1:07:06

You really picked up on the word that I really wanted to talk about here is that perseverance. You know she talked about this notion of you know the first job she had great job the next job terrible job really really hated the person that you worked for at that point. And look it ain't easy you know when you have that situation how do you get out of it or how quickly do you get out of it? And then obviously you know to have bumps along the career path you really do have that moment you really do have that moment where you kind of look at yourself in the mirror and say am I going to continue or do I have to get you know a real job so to speak yeah obviously you know she has a real job but there is the path where you say to yourself this is my dream job. This is what I've always wanted to do and this is what I'm always going to do. Or do you say to yourself I need to pay rent next month and that's the way I have to go that's a real question that a lot of us are sometimes faced with. And I can tell you this as someone who freelanced in the past that is something I talked about to myself a lot during my career.

Larry Shea 1:08:09

Yeah I think very impressive knowing how to get out of a toxic work relationship right and knowing when to leave and how to get out because your mental health is important. Sometimes we have to you know search around for the nuggets right in these in these interviews you know but like when when I talk to Pam and I hear things like know your strengths and weaknesses get up and put one foot in front of the other you know hustling finding a way selling apples doing what you have to do I think that's fascinating. And then also luck is when preparedness meets opportunity. She admits she was lucky with a lot of things but luck hard work dedication she's she's really a fascinating story because we don't talk about the adversity stuff very often right but these journeys are hard and they're long and she found a way and that's great.

Tushar Saxena 1:08:59

One thing I also picked up from her was like when she talked a bit about hey you know a box she said a boxing coach who said the idea of always get up, right? You know, there are little things that you kind of pick up along the way that you kind of use for inspiration. And we didn't talk to you about a mentor so to speak but you know along our journeys we all kind of pick up on things that inspire us. And I even had things that I I'll even like you know put that to myself and say that yeah there were moments in my career path that yeah there were instances and moments little things that I can say I really really relate to were on that that yes there were instances and little nuggets here and there that I used to inspire me to go for it as well. So for her journey I think her and her journey and mine I really relate to a great deal.

Larry Samuels 1:09:41

You know and and some of the things that that stood out to me were one self-confidence you know as we talk about having the the faith to hang in there and to keep going and to put yourself into an environment where you could be successful and you could meet the right people and you knew you know the the talent set that you had that you could offer to people and to believe in that and to hang in there long enough to make it um stood out to me. And and the other thing that that I found very interesting was how she handled and knew to handle the Hannibal Burra situation. Like how did she have the instincts and the street smarts to know to pull him out of that situation when it presented itself I I just found it very interesting that she she seems to have the street smarts the savvy and the instincts to handle some really complex situations.

Larry Shea 1:10:33

And her story can can be applied to a lot of different businesses and professions right you know the get up just get up I mean that is just so brilliant you can apply that to almost any field and it works. So she's given you tools about how she did it but they're tools that we can all use in our lives as well.

Larry Samuels 1:10:51

Without question and and again you know having having seen her journey and and having lived part of that with her you know it's it's incredibly wonderful for me and it feels good to have had this conversation with Pam today. So with that Pam thank you thank you so much for joining this episode of No Wrong Choices. We also thank you for joining us please be sure to give us a five star rating and follow along on your podcasting platform if you like what you heard. We also encourage you to join the conversation by visiting our website at nowrongchoices.com and by following us on social media by searching for no wrong choices. On behalf of Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea I'm Larry Samuels thanks again for joining us never forget there are no wrong choices on the road to success we learn from every experience